Author Topic: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?  (Read 4132 times)

Spence

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Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« on: March 23, 2011, 09:38:27 PM »
Here's a fun one that came up a few days back.
>1-2 No limit game.
>Seat 1 SB
>Seat 2 BB
>Seat 3 does not act
>Seat 4 raises to $11 out of turn
>Action returns to Seat 3 who raises to $10

What now?
Unfortunately I was on a break when this happened. I always miss out on the fun...

MikeB

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2011, 10:19:02 PM »
Hi Spencer:

Roberts Rules, Section 3 (General), Betting & Raising, rule 11 addresses this pretty well for cash games:

"11: Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding."

In your example, Seat 4 made a verbal declaration out of turn to raise the action. At the time of 4's declare it was only 2 units to him.
Now, per Rule 11 above, if the action is sugsequently changed by a bet or raise, his declare is not binding. That's exactly what happened: the action was backed up to the rightful bettor (Seat 3) and 3 changed the action to Seat 4. 3 changed it from 2 units to 10 units. So, based on this I would rule that Seat 4 is not bound by his declaration of 11 units and can take any action he wants: call, fold, or raise.   BTW, this is similar to TDA Rule 29 for tournament play.


Spence

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2011, 10:53:41 PM »
I quickly skimmed through the TDA rules looking for this ruling but couldn't find it. Now that you've pointed it out it's clear as day:

Play: Bets & Raises
29.   Verbal Declarations / Acting in Turn
Verbal declarations in turn are binding.  Players are required to act in turn.  Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed.  A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.

Our house rule was the thing thatwas in conflict in this situation it seems. our house rule states:
"Players are required to act in turn.  Any player who acts out of turn will be frozen and held to their action."

Essentially what we are stating is that chips put into the pot will not be returned under any circumstances.
As I recall the ruling by the floor person was that the out of turn raiser could take back 1 dollar or re-raise.

Nick C

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 02:07:17 AM »
 I see nothing wrong with backing up the action to the proper bettor. Which is what your dealer did. The problem that usually develops is when other players follow the out of turn action. I like the part about giving him back his dollar but, I don't like giving him a raise option. He was the offending player, his out of turn action needs to be addressed.
 I do like the way Spencer's rule is worded:
  "Any player who acts out of turn will be frozen and held to their action."  I emphasize the word "will" as in; WILL be frozen and held to their action, as opposed to may be frozen...or might be frozen (too vague).
 Mike, I was looking over your response and I noticed that you said "Seat 4 made a verbal declaration out of turn to raise the action." I saw no indication of a verbal but, that does offer a new twist....at least I think it does. I have seen rules that make a verbal declaration of raise binding in that exact situation, yet allowing a player to retract his bet if he just pushes it forward without saying anything.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 07:42:10 AM by Nick C »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2011, 11:33:12 PM »
Hi Spencer:

Roberts Rules, Section 3 (General), Betting & Raising, rule 11 addresses this pretty well for cash games:

"11: Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding."

In your example, Seat 4 made a verbal declaration out of turn to raise the action. At the time of 4's declare it was only 2 units to him.
Now, per Rule 11 above, if the action is sugsequently changed by a bet or raise, his declare is not binding. That's exactly what happened: the action was backed up to the rightful bettor (Seat 3) and 3 changed the action to Seat 4. 3 changed it from 2 units to 10 units. So, based on this I would rule that Seat 4 is not bound by his declaration of 11 units and can take any action he wants: call, fold, or raise.   BTW, this is similar to TDA Rule 29 for tournament play.



I am 100% in agreement with this post, I am strongly against the forcing of the out of turn better's chips to stay in the pot if the in turn better changes the action.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 10:11:12 AM »
If it's only 4 players at the table then yes, back up the action, if there were 5 or more players at the table I would rule the UTG players hand dead, in fact come to think of it 3 players have acted at minimum, seat 4 raised out of turn, seat 1 and 2 i will presume passed so therefore seat 3 has a dead hand as he failed to call attention to his right to action within the prescribed timescale.

Therefore, for me IMHO Seat 3's hand is dead.

RROP Irregularities:
12.   To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act

Best
Stu
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 02:29:56 PM »
Stuart,
 We have gone over this very subject at great lentgh on other posts. I have to say that the rule is not clear (to me) as written. If RROP wants the hand killed why don't they say it? Why do they leave it open to confusion; ...."may cause you to lose the right to act.".... If the hand is dead after three people act behind you, then that is what they need to say. I do not interpret the rule the way you do but, I can see why there are differing opinions.

Spence

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 04:00:59 PM »
What I construe from "may cause you to lose the right to act" is that it means you cannot raise. That your actions would be bound to a call or fold. If that's the case then there is not an issue with the RRoP misdeal due to boxed cards.

Nick C

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 04:52:20 PM »
Spence,
 That is always the way that I understood it, too. This is my biggest complaint with many rules, they are not as clear as they could be.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Pre-raising an out of turn raise?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 08:40:17 AM »
Whoops, what am I thinking, yeh you are correct he looses the right to act, not his hand because it is a missed player and the street's betting is still ongoing, apologies Nick, therefore action is not backed upto him, he looses his right to aggressive action during the street and can only call the additional $1 or fold. Once the turn is out his options are normal, but if seat 1 or 2 had put in an intervening raise, say to $25 he would be released from his bind.

Best Stu
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director