Author Topic: Moving to a new table  (Read 5857 times)

Spence

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Moving to a new table
« on: March 23, 2011, 03:39:25 PM »
I was curious to find a little about what rules your card rooms use in this circumstance. When an existing game has been running several hours, and you are opening a new game, do you allow players who have already been playing to move to the new games? As far as I know all card rooms dictate that you MUST move ALL your chips if you are moving to a table of the same stakes. In a no-limit game where the buy-in is capped what is your protocol on table changes?
Would you allow a player with $800 to move to a new table, but force them to take all their chips, even when the buy-in might be max. $200?
Would you allow that person to cash out the remaining $600?
Would you make them wait a set amount of time before the new table isn't considered new anymore?
Any other rules, comments, suggestions, I'd love to hear them thanks!

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2011, 05:39:10 PM »
Welcome Spencer Wood,
 Usually when two or more games of the same limit are in progress and a player requests to move to another table he must meet all of the requirements for that game. In other words, he must have the minimum buy-in and he can not exceed the maximum (if there is one). If the house moves a player, then that player may maintain the chips that they had in play even if it does not meet the required buy in, this would also include an amount that exceeds the maximum. Sometimes when games are breaking down, management is forced to consolidate several short handed games down to a reduced number. So a good rule of thumb (it keeps a lot of players from jumping from table to table) is to stick with this formula. Players that leave a game after a big win and want to come back to the same game must be gone for at least one hour, or they are required to buy-in with the amount they cashed out. You can see where these rules might be tough to enforce, but it has never been a problem that I know of.
 Something else to consider might be to decide if you want to have balanced tables or use the main game with one or more "feeder tables." I prefer to balance but, many rooms use the feeder because they always want at least one full table. Example; Three tables spreading the same game, main game has 10 players and the first feeder might have 10 and the second feeder is in trouble when they get down to 6 or less. If you were using a balance with a total of twenty-six players, you could have 9 at two tables and 8 at the other. The balance would guarantee that no table had two more players than any other of the same game. We used to use table change buttons and if the player passed when asked to move they had to give up the button. In the wee hours of the morning, on a graveyard shift, when we knew that the games were going to break down, with no chance of attracting new players, I always liked the balance the best. I found that if we had three tables and we were at about twenty-two or twenty-three players, we would draw cards to see who would move and who would be first on the waiting list. Somehow, players were always more receptive to the luck of the draw as opposed to telling them they had to sit out because they were the last one seated by a minute or two. At times, we would actually make a table 11 handed to satisfy our early morning customers. I hope this helps.

JasperToo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 07:47:49 AM »
Nicks answer is spot on.. I just wanted to comment on using balanced tables or feeder tables.

I know personally and many other players really hate balanced tables.  They usually prefer must move tables and a "main" game.  Two things happen otherwise; a player will start the original game off at the beginning of the day and work a stack up and then later on has the other tables breakdown, instead of that first game getting all the players and lasting the longest, his table breaks and he is forced to move to a new table.  Or while the tables are being balanced throughout the afternoon, a player potentially would get bounced (most Floor guys are careful not to but it can happen)

Most players like to know that once they get to the 'main' game they are there for the duration.  If they start at a "must move" table they know they will have to / get to move to the main game eventually

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 11:46:26 AM »
Jasper,First you say my answer is spot on and then you turn around and tell us how you hate balanced tables. We don't agree on too much, that's for sure. More reasons why "Must Move" sucks, IMO:
 The main game isn't always the best game and I've seen the main game break in a hurry before one of the feeder games. Another question; what do you do when a player in the main game wants the feeder game? I've had quite a bit of experience with both and I like Balancing tables better.

Spence

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 03:55:34 PM »
I think you guys are missing the point of my post. The question was what do you do if a player has more chips than the max buy on a new game. Do you force them to move ALL their chips? Do you have them cash out the remainder or do you say they cannot move?
Another card room I worked in we did both balance and force move. We force moved our big game to keep it alive, but for our regular games, just balanced out with new players.

JasperToo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 05:32:59 PM »
Nick, I think you may have misunderstood a bit.  The essence of your post regarding the procedures for maintaining tables for both must move and balancing tables was correct - spot on - I was just commenting on the fact that I LIKE MUST MOVE rather than balancing.  And that is apparently where we disagree.  But I think that is just a preference thing.

I tell the guy at the main game to get comfortable where he is cause he ain't moving.  It is that simple.  As long as the players know that the MUST MOVE table players actually must move, then the main game players know they shouldn't even be looking at the other table.  They just have to wait for the fish to come to them :)

Sorry Spencer, got off track.  The answer to your question is that if it is the same game and limit any player moving to another table takes all his chips.  If it is a different limit and or structure he must cash out and buy in for the table buy-in limits of the new game.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 06:09:33 PM »
Spence, I thought I did answer that question on my first reply. If a player is forced to move by the house he can take his winnings and cash out as long as he meets the buy-in requirements for the game. If he asks to be moved, (requests a table change) he has to bring all his chips. This is the way we used to do it and I notice that Jasper says if it's the same game and limit any player brings all his chips. So there you have it, another optional house rule for us to ponder. In a low limit game it was easier to understand. Example; Player at table 1 wants table 2, the buy in is only $40. He bought in for $40 when he started but now he only has $15. His seat opens at table 2, they call his name and he moves. He must re-buy in order to play. Now the same situation but he does not request to move, the house moves him because his game is breaking down. He can sit at table 2 with his $15 if he wants. I hope this helps you understand. That is how we always did it, but that was long ago.

Spence

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 09:11:42 PM »
Hey guys. Just to clarify this a bit more:
>Yes the player is choosing to move.
>This is not a forced moved situation.
>I am opening a new game.
>The max buy-in is $200.
>The game will open short handed so there is seating available.
>The player in question has $800.
>We have established that we want him to move all his chips.
The question remains, does it make sense to allow a player to move to a new table with more than the allowable max buy-in simply because he wishes to move? Yes it benefits us in keeping the games balanced to allow for a full rake to be taken but, isn't this an issue of integrity? Isn't our role as a TD or poker Houseman to preserve the integrity of the game? I am conflicting with other members of staff at my location over this. All I was asking is that the player who wishes to move be forced to wait one orbit of the button. No player is forced to post when entering a new game (except the blinds) unless the button has passed them or finished the first orbit. Do you feel this is necessary or am I just being picky? It will probably turn out that the table has no more chips after the first orbit and actually could have less due to rake, but can't I at least say I tried to do something to keep that player from coming to the game and being a potential bully?
Back me up guys!

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2011, 12:16:58 PM »
Spence,
 If you ask me, I think you answered your own question. Allowing the player with $800 to sit in a new game with a max of $200 would not be appealing to me, or any other players I asked. I think your defining the player as a "bully" might hold weight. If you are looking for some back-up, I'm on your side. It is too much of an advantage to subject the other players to. It would probably hurt your chances of filling that game, too. Well, that's how I feel about it. I hope I answered your question.

Spence

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 03:26:23 PM »
Thanks Nick. Much appreciated. For some reason, my manager won't back me up...

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 04:49:48 PM »
Nick:  Unless I am missing something, you have contradicted yourself.  Now, before I continue, I agree 100% that allowing this player to bring more than the buyin to the new table would give him a HUGE advantage. 

That said, in your last response you said, "Allowing the player with $800 to sit in a new game with a max of $200 would not be appealing to me, or any other players I asked." (This was from you most recent response, Posted Today at 1:16:58)

In your response prior to that one, Posted on: March 25, 2011, 07:09:33 pm, you said, "If he asks to be moved, (requests a table change) he has to bring all his chips."

If this isn't a contradiction, please tell me what I am missing.

Chet

Spence

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 07:24:29 PM »
Now that we agree, what rule does your card room use?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 08:30:25 PM »
Chet,
 All we are trying to do is prevent a player from pocketing his winnings and moving from table to table with the minimum buy-in. I guess we are more concerned about complying with table stakes. If the poor guy lost $600 and he only had $50 left (not enough for the buy-in), what are you going to do, send him home because you moved him to the last game going and he didn't have the buy-in. You figure it out. I know what I said and I don't see the contradiction but maybe there is. I guess I'm more familiar with the games when there was no maximum buy-in, only a minimum. If a player wanted to pocket his winnings and go the the same limit game he had to wait one hour before he could enter with the minimum. There is no question that there is a big difference in limit as opposed to no-limit. Maybe I'll be able to sort it out a little better tomorrow, but for now I'm calling it a night.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 05:40:22 AM by Nick C »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2011, 03:16:50 AM »
Chet and Spence and Jasper,
 I will now try to address Spence's original question with a little more clarity. The key to the question is the NEW GAME. There is no way that a player could be allowed to be seated with the original players, having $800, when the max is $200. No way. That defeats the purpose of having a max for that game. I've looked back at our responses and I can see why Chet questions my answers. I'm sorry if I caused any confusion. The good news is, it won't ever be a problem that we have to worry about in a tournament. Thinking this out, I realize that the buy-ins and methods that card rooms use for moving players from table to table are not POKER RULES, they are better classified as HOUSE RULES. When I consider that ten years ago, a maximum buy-in was unheard of in most casinos. The main reason was most rooms did not spread no-limit. I remember games with the lowest minimum buy-in requirement had no restriction whatsoever on the max. The more a player would put on the table, the more we all liked it.
 There is a definite separation that is neccessary between the more popular no-limit, and any limit game. Moving players is one of the toughest duties for any floor person. Keeping the players happy in the wee hours of the morning takes a lot of finese. Working the graveyard shift is always more challenging than working a shift where all the tables are full, and there are long lists of players waiting for a seat. When those games start to break, with no list, and no chance of starting another game, that's when we sometimes bend the rules.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 08:15:51 PM by Nick C »

Brian Vickers

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 451
  • Poker Manager
Re: Moving to a new table
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2011, 09:28:18 AM »
In order to maintain table stakes, players moving from one table to another table of the same game type and stakes must move all of their chip in order to maintain table stakes. 

Forcing a player to buy back down to the table's max would give a player a free pass to go south.