Author Topic: raising - you make the ruling  (Read 6928 times)

W0lfster

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raising - you make the ruling
« on: March 22, 2011, 06:30:14 AM »
No limit HL, blinds are 50/100 the SB checks and the BB bets 100 so minimum bet. The UTG announces raise and puts in 149 by accident. My question is what is the ruling if players try to raise but it is not within the minimum raise, Ive heard that if the raise is 50% or more it is a minimum raise and the UTG must then put in 200. However, he put in 149 which from my understanding it does not stand and is considered a call. What do you all think, Im a bit confused as the 50% rule is from what I know for limit games not no limit.

Thx :)

Stuart Murray

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 07:33:31 AM »
because the player announced raise before placing anything in and then followed it up with an incomplete raise the raise shall be the minimum permitted so in your example the BB has raised to a total of 200, the SB must make it 300 total (a further raise of 100 more)

If the SB had said nothing before putting in the 149 it would of been considered a call and the 49 would of been returned, if he had put in 150 or more without declaration it would be considered a raise to 300 total.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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Nick C

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 07:41:28 AM »
Andy,
 I will atempt to answer your question but, I'm having problems with the way the question is worded, for a number of reasons. The first is that the situation needs to be more specific. I guess we are to assume that the action is after the flop, because that is the only time the SB could check. It is also difficult to put the number of multiple denomination chips into the pot (149) by mistake. The fact that the UTG announced raise, before pushing his chips into the pot, he is now obligated to make the full mimimum raise (100 more, not 49) to a total of 200. Verbal is binding in the situation you described. The only way the UTG player could put in 149 is if he were all-in for that amount. To make this a little more interesting; if the UTG pushed the 149 into the pot before he announced raise, he would only be allowed to call the 100 and his "extra" 49 would be given back to him, and that is a rule for all poker, not just no-limit. The raise would not be allowed.

While I was sending my response, Stuart sent you an answer. Andy, I think you will see why you need to break the question down so we understand exactly what you are asking. If not, it will be difficult to get the answer you are looking for.
  

W0lfster

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 09:01:03 AM »
Fair enough Nick and you are right, the SB did check on the flop where the BB bet 100 which is the minimum for the game. I now understand that if the UTG had said raise and put in 149 without declaring how much, I now understand he would get his 49 back and is considered a call. Why is it if he puts in 150 its considered a minimum raise and hed have to put in 200?

Please explain Nick how I can break it down even further?

chet

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 09:14:35 AM »
Andy: 

Because the rule sets the standard at 50%, anything less is a call.  50% or more requires that a full raise be made.  Why 50%?  Because that is the number chosen when the rule was adopted.  I can argue for some other number, either more or less, but this is the way it is.

That exact wording of that part of TDA Rule #21 is:  "If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she must make a full raise."  In your question, 150 is exactly 50% of the minimum raise, so the player must make it 200.  Unless of course the player would be all-in for less than 200.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 09:25:48 AM »
Andy,
 Chet is correct and I know he meant to say TDA Rule #31 and not #21.

JasperToo

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 09:55:12 AM »
Fair enough Nick and you are right, the SB did check on the flop where the BB bet 100 which is the minimum for the game. I now understand that if the UTG had said raise and put in 149 without declaring how much, I now understand he would get his 49 back and is considered a call. This is NOT correct... since the player DECLARED a raise and then followed with chips in the pot, it doesn't matter if it is 50% more or less of a minimum raise...it just matters that it is LESS than a minimum raise .  Since he said raise he is now obligated to put in the minimum (200 total).  The 50% rule is ONLY for a player that DID NOT DECLARE anything but just placed chips in the pot.Why is it if he puts in 150 its considered a minimum raise and hed have to put in 200?

Please explain Nick how I can break it down even further?

Nick C

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 11:08:28 AM »
Andy,
 Jasper is correct. If you believe what you wrote, then you don't understand. When a player announces raise, it makes no difference how short his bet is, he must complete it to a full minimum raise. I was so concerned about correcting Chet's post, I failed to consentrate on your response. Thanks Jasper.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 01:12:33 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 12:05:25 PM »
the BB bet 100 [on his option] which is the minimum for the game. I now understand that if the UTG had said raise and put in 149 without declaring how much [the 149 is a "declared amount" of sorts, once raise is announced, see below... it's a declare that "i'll bet the minimum" if it follows the verbal], I now understand he would get his 49 back and is considered a call.
 Wolf, just to clarify, the above is not correct. Since the UTG said raise, once that happens, he is required to put in a raise... doesn't matter what he pushes out at that point: 149 or 129 or even 1...  anything less than 200 and he's still required to make a min raise of 100 to 200 total in this case. The verbal declare of "raise" trumps the underbet of 149 as long as he made the verbal first, and declaring "raise" without an amount obligates you to raise at least the minimum. His subsequent push of 149 then determines the amount of the raise... since it was under the minimum he must increase it to the minimum, 200 total in this case. Some optional action in your illustration:
 
Say raise then push 149: min raise to 200 total
Say raise then push 1: min raise to 200 total
Say nothing then silently push 149: that's a call because it's under the 50% rule.
Push 149 then say raise: that's a call because the silent chip push is a call (see above), you can't decide to raise once you've called.
Say nothing then push 150 (or more): thats a min raise to 200 total pursuant to the 50% rule
Hope this helps, thanks alot for the question, because betting and raising rules are the "heart" of poker.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 12:09:18 PM by MikeB »

W0lfster

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 01:32:07 PM »
Thanks alot for the input Mike, extremely helpful. You have explained this in a very concise and logical order which is something I much prefer than large sentences. I completely understand now,thx again   :)

W0lfster

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 01:45:40 PM »
Btw, does this apply when there is a BET rather than a raise. Example, blinds are 50/100 NL - on flop Sb checks and BB bets 49, would this be a check also as it wasnt above 50%? If this is so, I take it if the BB bet 50 up to 99 he'd have to put in 100 am I right?

Also does the 50% rule apply to all NL PL and Limit games.

Thx  :)

MikeB

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 03:39:36 PM »
Btw, does this apply when there is a BET rather than a raise. Example, blinds are 50/100 NL - on flop Sb checks and BB bets 49, would this be a check also as it wasnt above 50%? If this is so, I take it if the BB bet 50 up to 99 he'd have to put in 100 am I right?

Also does the 50% rule apply to all NL PL and Limit games. Thx  :)

Great questions Wolf...
1) Applies to Bet vs. raise. I can honestly say I've never faced this. I would say no. I would say that if there is no bet to you and you push any chips out, but less than 50% of a min bet, you have still made a min bet. Why? My logic is that the 50% rule exists for SILENT raises. If a player is facing a bet and they push chips silently, we don't 100% know what the INTENT is, do they just want to call or raise? So we use the 50% rule: if they've silently pushed out less than 50% of a raise increment with mixed denomination chips, then it's a call, if more than 50% it's a raise, so we have a standard to establish whether it's their intent to call or raise in the absence of a preceding verbal declaration. On the other hand, if you aren't facing any bet and you push chips out, to me that's as good as declaring "bet", i.e. there is zero question that the player intends to start betting action, and therefore I'd require a min bet if they pushed out anything less than a min bet.  Another way to look at it is that a check is a "bet of zero", so if you push out at least 50% of zero but less than the minimum required bet you have to make a min-bet. Well, 50% of zero is pushing out anything...  But I'd be interested to hear other's opinions on this, I've never faced it.
2) I would say that the 50% rule applies to silent raises of mixed denomination chips in all betting structures: NL, PL, or Limit
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 04:49:48 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2011, 05:02:36 PM »
Andy and Mike,
 That is an interesting question, but when it is a players turn to act, with no bet in front of them and they move forward with any short amount, it is a minimum bet. No % rule is applied here. I am not referring to any type of action when facing a bet, only when the player is initiating a wager for that betting round. Any forward motion with chips would indicate the players INTENT is to make a wager. If I were dealing, the player would be obligated to a full minimum bet. Period.

 The 50% rule applies in all limits of poker, when a player pushes or bets the wrong amount. The confusion comes from the all-in player, because his short all-in bet, affects limit poker different from no-limit and pot limit.

JasperToo

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 05:59:02 PM »
Great questions Wolf...
....  Another way to look at it is that a check is a "bet of zero", so if you push out at least 50% of zero but less than the minimum required bet you have to make a min-bet. Well, 50% of zero is pushing out anything...  But I'd be interested to hear other's opinions on this, I've never faced it. Oh my! I don't like the check is a bet of zero mentality, it is simply the player passing on his option to INITIATE betting!
2) I would say that the 50% rule applies to silent raises of mixed denomination chips in all betting structures: NL, PL, or Limit

Aside from my note above, though, what your saying is correct.  If not facing a bet and without verbalizing an amount, pushing chips into the pot which amount to LESS than the minimum BET requires a player to place enough chips in the pot to meet the minimum bet.

 RROP Section 3: Betting and Raising #13 - "a player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct..."
also Section 3: Betting & Raising #16 - "All wagers and calls of an of an improperly low amount must be brought up to proper size...." (no TDA rule speaks to this)

Nicks last post said it well, too.

W0lfster

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Re: raising - you make the ruling
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 12:32:44 PM »
Great replies all of you!

Sorry Mike can you please explain what you wrote here: Say raise then push 1: push 1? but the bet is 100