Author Topic: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration  (Read 8295 times)

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2010, 11:25:59 AM »
bear in mind melanie lofthouse would be writing about this situation when the old rule was in place that an exposed hand was a dead hand, this rule is no longer valid.  The statements from all the TD's are examples of train of thought for you to consider, rules change on a regular basis and therefore a previous decision by a previous TD should only be used in logic arguments unless the rule which was used is still valid.

The Hendon Mob is widely respected and does include many TD's and their interpretations of the event are correct in saying:

"The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty."

Perhaps read all thread first before going on the rampage wsopmcgee - there is no difference between European and American rules - my games are run under TDA rules whilst there are differences between card-rooms, but this is true globally and to attribute this to 'European Rules' is rather arrogant, as there is no European Poker rules that I have ever been aware of.  There are poorly educated players from every corner of the world, however as usuall the ones that get it wrong stand out the most - what about the 99% of players who never come to your or my attention?  Do these players all come from the same location?  Of course not.

Regards
Rampage? Not in the least :) Just my sarcastic humor at work. I did read the entire thread. Rampages would include  >:(
Nuff said there.

Attributing a generalization of a perceived acceptable practice in European Card Rooms I suppose could be construed as arrogant. But that's just been my experience at the Series. I'm beginning to think that the term Heads-up is being misused, in that, a tournament is never actually Heads-up until there are only two players left in the event.

To say that there are no European Rules is very cavalier as well. ;) If I didn't know better already I'd say your response was hinting that players across the pond (at least the ones I had to make rulings on) are poorly educated. To the contrary, I find them to be more educated and true students of the game.

Found some European Rules

There's a glaring difference in the rules adopted by the EPT and those of the TDA
=====================================================================================================
Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.

Rule 24. Players who are not in the hand may not discuss the hand in play until all action is completed. Discussing cards discarded is not allowed.
=====================================================================================================

Both sets of rules give the distinct impression that it is more than OK to discuss the content of your own hand as well as discuss the contents of any other players hand possibilities, so long as they are still active in the pot.

These rules are directly opposite of TDA Rule 41 with regard to disclosure of a live hand.

41.   No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
   1.  Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
   2.  Advise or criticize play at any time,
   3.  Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.


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chet

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2010, 04:27:49 PM »

Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.

WSOPMCGEE --

I find the last five words of the 1st sentence most interesting "...purposes of the televised tournament..."  Does this apply ONLY if the event is televised?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2010, 09:00:16 PM »
There's a glaring difference in the rules adopted by the EPT and those of the TDA
=====================================================================================================
Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.

Rule 24. Players who are not in the hand may not discuss the hand in play until all action is completed. Discussing cards discarded is not allowed.
=====================================================================================================

Interesting, I was remotely aware of these wordings, I remember a friend of mine who played at London Clubs International in Glasgow and an opposing player read his hand aloud, my friend quoted me saying an untabled hand should not be read, especially with 2 other people still with active hands, The Card-room manager was called and ruled in the 'think alouds' favour!

I found this totally bewildering and unacceptable, I do not allow it, I play by TDA rules, which are far more robust.  Just another situation of Card rooms having their own rules which are often outdated and not inkeeping with 'the trend'  There are many UK TD's trying their best to unify our rules to TDA rules and I think we are getting there.

I trust we are proving that we are not too behind the times!

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2010, 12:35:24 AM »

Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.

WSOPMCGEE --

I find the last five words of the 1st sentence most interesting "...purposes of the televised tournament..."  Does this apply ONLY if the event is televised?

While I don't claim to be an EPT expert, I would have to presume because these events are associated with pokerstars that many of the events, if only the main, are televised.

Did some more research today and found some more rule sets to compare. Very interesting stuff.

From the Russian Poker Federation

7.1.6. Умышленное вскрытие своих карт, либо объявление своих карт, до того как закончился круг торговли – наказывается штрафом в виде пропуска нарушителем одного круга раздач. То же нарушение, совершённое игроком два раза или более – наказывается штрафом в виде пропуска нарушителем двух кругов раздач.

Примечание 1: Если игрок вскрыл свои карты до окончания круга торговли, его карты уходят в пас, в исключительных случаях по решению главного судьи карты могут продолжить играть.

Примечание 2: Если игрок вскрыл свои карты до окончания круга торговли в ситуации, когда в игре осталось два игрока, тогда второй игрок имеет право либо продолжить игру по общим правилам, либо выбрать что его ставка олл-ин, либо отозвать свою ставку, которая не была уравнена.

ROUGHLY TRANSLATED via Google

7.1.6. Deliberate exposure of its cards, or declaration of their cards before the betting round is over - is punishable by a fine in the form of a circle passes violator distributions. The same breach committed by a player twice or more - punishable by a fine in the form of two circles crossing violator distributions.

Note 1: If the player has revealed his cards before the betting round, leaving his card in the pass, in exceptional cases by decision of the Chief Justice of cards can continue to play.

Note 2: If the player has revealed his cards before the betting round in a situation where the game left the two players, then the second player can either continue to play by common rules, or to choose his bet all-in, or withdraw its bid, which is not was equalized.

From the Federation Francaise des Joueurs de Poker

Les cartes dévoilées :
6.1. Il est strictement interdit de révéler son jeu (ou une partie de son jeu) en annonçant ou en montrant sa main avant la fin d'un coup (c'est à dire quand des joueurs peuvent encore miser). Cela est valable même si le joueur désirant dévoiler son jeu est le dernier à pouvoir encore miser (l'adversaire étant à tapis). Cet acte sera sanctionné (mais la main reste en jeu). Cette règle ("one hand - one player") a pour but d'isoler le joueur dans sa décision (pas de réaction des autres joueurs ou du public) et de combattre la collusion (pas de passage d'information).

ROUGHLY TRANSLATED via Google

The maps revealed:
6.1. It is strictly forbidden to reveal his game (or any part of his game) announcing or showing its hand before the end of a stroke (ie when players can still bet). This is true even if the player wishing to unveil his latest game is still able to build (the opponent is to carpet). This act will be penalized (but his hand remains in play). This rule ( "one hand - one player") is intended to isolate the player in its decision (no reaction from other players or the public) and combat collusion (not passing information).

These rule sets are more in accordance with TDA with some areas left open for interpretation as I'm not fluent in either Russian or French  ;)

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chet

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2010, 09:59:32 AM »
wsopmcgee:

We tried using Google translations on the old TDA site and found that it was not accurate enough to get an accurate result.  Our goal at that time was to translate the TDA rules into different languages and post them.  Unfortunately, we had to postpone that project until we find individuals who can do a 'manual' translation to get an correct result.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2010, 07:43:53 AM »
wsopmcgee:

We tried using Google translations on the old TDA site and found that it was not accurate enough to get an accurate result.  Our goal at that time was to translate the TDA rules into different languages and post them.  Unfortunately, we had to postpone that project until we find individuals who can do a 'manual' translation to get an correct result.

Ah. That is unfortunate.
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