Author Topic: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration  (Read 8293 times)

michaelgtjr

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Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« on: December 27, 2009, 09:48:36 PM »
Requesting clarification on Rule #8 verbal declaration
Quote
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in.  Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7.  My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized.  Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding?  Please use examples if possible.

chet

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 10:23:12 PM »
Requesting clarification on Rule #8 verbal declaration
Quote
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in.  Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7.  My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized.  Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding?  Please use examples if possible.

My interpretation of this rule is as follows:  1.  Regardless of what a player says his/her hole card are, that hand is valued based upon the cards revealed at the showdown.  Hence the term "Cards Speak".

2. Regarding Verbal Declarations - It is entirely possible, in fact I have done it myself, to misread hole cards, ie., read the "4" as an Ace or believe that the two hole cards of the same color are "suited" and say something accordingly.  In my experience, most of the time this is a mistake as opposed to a deliberate attempt to induce someone to take some particular action.  In fact, I believe I remember an article in the past year or so by T. J. Cloutier in which he gave an example of where he really thought his hole cards were suited and played the hand that way only to find out they were not at the showdown.

3.  There are individuals who intentionally miscall their hands, saying some thing like I have a flush or a straight or a full house when they are on a stone cold bluff in a deliberate attempt to get another player to muck his/her hand before hands are tabled.  It is those cases, where the last part of this rule comes into play.  It gives the TD the 'authority' to invoke a penalty for this kind of 'angle shooting'.

The above usually comes into play at the end of a hand, but just before individual hands are tabled or shown. 

Discussion of the content of hands during the course of play is covered by Rule 41, No Disclosure. 

Hope this helps!

LeScribe

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 03:29:30 AM »
Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in.  Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7.
Ok, no problem : as it was pre-flop (not at showdown), it's just an attempt to make his opponent fold. It's only a bluff attempt.


My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized.  Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding?  Please use examples if possible.


Quote from: TDA Rules - Pots/Showdown - 8. Declarations
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

I understand this rule only in the context of a mandatory showdown (always pay attention to the Rule section : here, it's "Pots / Showdown")

That rule want to say that if a player try to lie about his hand at showdown, without showing it quickly, making his opponent to fold, he cannot get the pot if it's proved that he lied and his hand was not the winning one.
Furthermore, if it was a deliberate lie, he should get a penalty for this bad behaviour (Chet's explanation #3 : "angle shooting").

« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 03:31:48 AM by LeScribe »
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 09:45:06 AM »
I remember reading this the other day on the hendon mob website.  There is a feqature called you are the td and they ask some of the leading TD's to give their judgements on situations.  Here the situation and the resulting replies from the TD's:

Situation: On the bubble in a big NLH competition Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ĎIíve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!í You are called to the table, how do you rule?

Matt Savage:
This is one of those situations where it does happen and I would... strange, strangely enough I would go to the table and see the guys hand and its one of those things where... Iím not a fan of this if you're lying its OK and if your telling the truth then its not but I would see if the player had Aces and if he had Aces then I would give him a penalty that would definitely affect his spot in this tournament and you know I would let the hand play out and... I would ask to see the cards after the hand was finished.

Thomas Kremser:
I would give a warning to the player as he is not supposed to name his hand! Next time Ė time penalty!

Jack McClelland:
Both hands are live but button player receives penalty starting next hand.

Liam Flood:
Itís up to the other guy to call or pass. The fella who is announcing his aces might not be telling the truth; in fact Iím 99% certain heís not telling in the truth!

Melanie Lofthouse:
You tell the player B that next hand he is sinbinned for 15mins. Player A has decision to make. If player A calls and player B has aces then I would give the pot to player A because you are not allowed to tell people what hand you have. TDA rules state that you are not allowed to mention your exact hand whilst the hand is in play. Just because he might like the guy and not want him to go out, doesnít mean to say that he can tell him he has aces so he can fold. Not on.

Marty Wilson:
Is he bluffing or telling the truth? Itís only table talk and table talkís encouraged. If heís re-raised youíre taking the chance heís got the aces anyway or it could be a poker move. I give player B the option of calling it.

The Mob Verdict:

We are presuming that the situation is heads up. You have to ask yourself why the TD has been called to the table. Is there any issue of collusion? If collusion is not as issue then we donít really see a problem and we put it down as table talk.

We donít buy into the Ďyou can only lieí rule Ė this is nonsense. The whole point of making statements is to deceive. It is over literal to be concerned whether they have named their hand correctly because whether they have named their hand correctly or not the intention is to deceive. The only thing that you really canít say at the table is the F-bomb and that rule is nonsense as well.

It could possibly be seen as the same as exposing your hand, stopping any further action, and prejudicing other players who want to see players eliminated. However, what is the difference in a heads up situation for a player to say Ďyou are definitely behindí or ĎI have acesí? Where do you draw the line?

The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty.
Stuart Murray
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emc300

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 08:17:59 PM »
Quote
The Mob Verdict:

We are presuming that the situation is heads up. You have to ask yourself why the TD has been called to the table. Is there any issue of collusion? If collusion is not as issue then we donít really see a problem and we put it down as table talk.


These guys are NOT TDs.  Everyone on the list DID NOT presume the table is heads up.  Best advice:  say nothing.

Quote
Melanie Lofthouse:
You tell the player B that next hand he is sinbinned for 15mins. Player A has decision to make. If player A calls and player B has aces then I would give the pot to player A because you are not allowed to tell people what hand you have. TDA rules state that you are not allowed to mention your exact hand whilst the hand is in play. Just because he might like the guy and not want him to go out, doesnít mean to say that he can tell him he has aces so he can fold. Not on.

Where in the TDA rules does it state that if you tell the truth and get your hand exposed, it's dead?  As good as that would sound, I don't think this is right.

Just my two cents, now where is my change?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 08:19:12 PM by emc300 »
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MikeB

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 09:29:55 PM »
Requesting clarification on Rule #8 verbal declaration
Quote
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in.  Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7.  My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized.  Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding?  Please use examples if possible.

Hi Michael... Rule 8 as I normally use it is a SHOWDOWN rule.

In your example, what you have with the guy saying he has Aces and pushing all-in is verbal banter during a betting action, rather than at the showdown. The banter in your example could be punishable at the TD's discretion as a violation of one or more aspects of Rules 40 through 44, "Etiquette and Penalties".

The key for me is that a TD has discretion here, like any judge, to size up the situation and see if it merits a warning, a penalty, or is merely trash talk under Rules 40 through 44... AND, the risk is on the player making these nebulous statements. When a player makes a casual remark, perhaps they didn't intend any angle shoot, but they run the risk that such a careless statement will be interpreted as a punishable statement or a binding statement of action etc.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 09:58:14 PM by MikeB »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2009, 05:40:10 AM »
bear in mind melanie lofthouse would be writing about this situation when the old rule was in place that an exposed hand was a dead hand, this rule is no longer valid.  The statements from all the TD's are examples of train of thought for you to consider, rules change on a regular basis and therefore a previous decision by a previous TD should only be used in logic arguments unless the rule which was used is still valid.

The Hendon Mob is widely respected and does include many TD's and their interpretations of the event are correct in saying:

"The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty."
Stuart Murray
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National Tournament Director

Linda Johnson

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 12:47:32 AM »
I don't think rule 8 handles this problem...I think it should go to rule 41:
41.   No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
   1.  Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
   2.  Advise or criticize play at any time,
   3.  Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.
I would give a penalty to the player who said he had aces based on violation of rule 41.
Linda Johnson

emc300

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 03:28:13 PM »
stumurr, fair enough.  The Hendon Mob is based in England, if I remember correctly.  Are you in England as well and if so (or not), do you have the website or blog spot they use?  I would like to see some of the other things they asked of the TDs.  Thanks in advance.
Matt Childress
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chet

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 03:43:46 PM »
Use this Link:

"http://www.thehendonmob.com/articles.html"

On the left side you will see a column of various topics under "Features".  There are three (3) articles, "You are the Tournament Director", "You are the Tournament Director II" and "You are the Tournament Director III".  As well as a whole bunch of other useful stuff

Hope this helps!!

Stuart Murray

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 05:54:30 PM »
no prob, ditto chet's response, im in Scotland.

Best Regards
Stuart Murray
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emc300

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 08:00:21 AM »
Thank you, Stuamurr & Chet.


I went as far to bookmark this site......this is an interesting series.....thanks again
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 08:30:03 AM by emc300 »
Matt Childress
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2010, 09:04:14 AM »
No problemo,

Yeh, it's an interesting series with good insight from leading TD's especially Series 3 which sees inoput from Jack Effel, Matt Savage and Thomas Kremsler - 3 of the most important names in major tourneys.

It's good to read what they think when they go to the table and I think reading articles like this can help every TD

Best regards and Happy New Year
Stuart Murray
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2010, 07:47:17 PM »
I remember reading this the other day on the hendon mob website.  There is a feqature called you are the td and they ask some of the leading TD's to give their judgements on situations.  Here the situation and the resulting replies from the TD's:

Situation: On the bubble in a big NLH competition Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ĎIíve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!í You are called to the table, how do you rule?

Liam Flood:
Itís up to the other guy to call or pass. The fella who is announcing his aces might not be telling the truth; in fact Iím 99% certain heís not telling in the truth!

Melanie Lofthouse:
You tell the player B that next hand he is sinbinned for 15mins. Player A has decision to make. If player A calls and player B has aces then I would give the pot to player A because you are not allowed to tell people what hand you have. TDA rules state that you are not allowed to mention your exact hand whilst the hand is in play. Just because he might like the guy and not want him to go out, doesnít mean to say that he can tell him he has aces so he can fold. Not on.

Marty Wilson:
Is he bluffing or telling the truth? Itís only table talk and table talkís encouraged. If heís re-raised youíre taking the chance heís got the aces anyway or it could be a poker move. I give player B the option of calling it.

Please tell me that these are made up responses concocted  by the author of the article, just like a TV Director does when directing a "Reality Show".

When did we start awarding pots to Player B, who called Player A, on the basis that Player A declared his hand and it happened to be the truth!?!? What??

When did table talk become encouraged?  I mean, I'm all for talking at the table. Who wants to play at a morgue. But to me there's a bit of a difference between stating "I've got Aces, Kings, Queens .....etc etc" and stating "I've got a good hand" or "I've got the best hand" or "I got you beat". That's JMO.

Quote
The Mob Verdict:

We are presuming that the situation is heads up. You have to ask yourself why the TD has been called to the table. Is there any issue of collusion? If collusion is not as issue then we donít really see a problem and we put it down as table talk.
This is a major difference between U.S. and European Rules. In the U.S. at many major events, it does not matter if they are heads up. An attempt to disclose your hand and influence the action is punishable by penalty no matter when it happens and is strongly discouraged. Dealing with lots of players from around the world at the WSOP, many players believe it is ok to disclose your hand and/or show your hole cards with action pending IF they are heads up with another player. In the U.S., this is only true in cash games. The reason is this: 1) In Cash Games, the only money/chips affected in the pot is only that of the players involved in the hand. 2) In Tournament, the money/chips affected in the pot is that of all the tournament participants.
Quote
We donít buy into the Ďyou can only lieí rule Ė this is nonsense. The whole point of making statements is to deceive. It is over literal to be concerned whether they have named their hand correctly because whether they have named their hand correctly or not the intention is to deceive. The only thing that you really canít say at the table is the F-bomb and that rule is nonsense as well.
First off, there is no 'you can only lie' rule. This is not a rule. The rule is you can not disclose the content of your hand. Stating that you have a specific hand ie, specific cards or hand ranking, is improper etiquette in tournament play.

We definitely don't want poker to become the NFL (No Fun League). However, players are expected to protect each others actions and interests at the poker table, along with the staff.



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Stuart Murray

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Re: Rule 8 Verbal Declaration
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 04:50:51 AM »
bear in mind melanie lofthouse would be writing about this situation when the old rule was in place that an exposed hand was a dead hand, this rule is no longer valid.  The statements from all the TD's are examples of train of thought for you to consider, rules change on a regular basis and therefore a previous decision by a previous TD should only be used in logic arguments unless the rule which was used is still valid.

The Hendon Mob is widely respected and does include many TD's and their interpretations of the event are correct in saying:

"The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty."

Perhaps read all thread first before going on the rampage wsopmcgee - there is no difference between European and American rules - my games are run under TDA rules whilst there are differences between card-rooms, but this is true globally and to attribute this to 'European Rules' is rather arrogant, as there is no European Poker rules that I have ever been aware of.  There are poorly educated players from every corner of the world, however as usuall the ones that get it wrong stand out the most - what about the 99% of players who never come to your or my attention?  Do these players all come from the same location?  Of course not.

Regards
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 04:59:07 AM by stuamurr »
Stuart Murray
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