Author Topic: Cards exposed during hand  (Read 26054 times)

chet

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2011, 03:41:24 PM »
Nick:  My interpretation of what Stuart was saying, is that the player who exposed his/her hole cards, would only be able to react to other players actions.  In other words, if it was checked around to that player he/she could only check or maybe fold.  If there was a bet, he/she would only be able to fold or call.  The offending player could not initiate any action

As I said before, I don't see any way I would ever implement such a restriction unless I have a player who is making a habit of exposing his/her hole cards.  I have never had a rule that would allow such, but I might consider it in the future.

Does that help?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2011, 04:04:38 PM »
Hi Nick/Chet,

Yip everything Chet has said is correct and with regard to limiting a player to passive play, it is rarely used, given the amateur nature of the majority of players in the leagues initiating passive play is something I do impose when a player intentionally exposes their hand or accidentally where I believe doing nothing would damage the fair and just results of the tournament.  Where it is experienced players it is not really an issue so you can let the hand play out as is, it is more a protection of amateur players which is the resolve of why I use it.

To confirm passive play it is check, call, fold only. Raise, Re-raise and Bet are not available options to a player who has been 'bound'

Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:05:48 PM by Stuart Murray »
Stuart Murray
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South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2011, 04:13:01 PM »
Andy,
 I don't think it's heated (anymore). I do think that all of us are a little confused and need a better example. I know that the original question indicated that it was an ACCIDENT, so the hand would be live and the offending player would be at the mercy of the players that saw his hand. That's the way I see it.
 Stuart and Chet might be able to enforce some type of betting restriction, or penalty for a tournament, I guess. I know of no specific rule that covers the accidental exposed card, and I was surprised to hear Stuart mention; that a WPT Ruling actually could rule the hand dead? Wow, you'd better hang on to that nut hand for dear life in that game.
 Andy, sorry for my lack of patience on my earlier reply, and thanks for giving us something to ponder all afternoon.

I want to repeat something that I said earlier; any exposed cards, with action pending, could restrict any further betting.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:19:32 PM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2011, 06:10:41 PM »
Andy,

Having just read through the thread it seems to me that the unclear bit for you is "what is passive play".  Passive play means that all a player can do is call any bets that he faces, he can't raise or make a bet of his own.  This means that he is putting in the same amount of chips as anyone else, he just isn't taking aggressive action.  So at the end when everybody shows down and he somehow still wins then he can claim the pot.

I am on the side of things that say the player can still play his hand the way he wants to after the cards are exposed and no, he does not have to keep them open (well, in my game s they don't) but he is playing with a hand that everybody knows and is at a huge disadvantage.  He has no fold equity,  bluffs are non existent and unless he accidently exposed the nuts he will likely be pushed off his hand.

The technical part of the rule is: hands is live, he puts chips in to call if he wants a chance at the pot, best hand wins, he gets penalty if he keeps doing it.

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2011, 06:40:22 PM »
Thats ok Nick and I am glad that I have brought something of importance to this forum. Thank you Jasper! It is MUCH clearer now! I apologise I guess I do not know all the poker clack as you call it, but just someone who needs logical step by step rulings down to the last detail. I do tend to keep asking if I do not have full confirmation on my questions which I apologise to those who may get impatient. So Jasper are you saying if there is no bet in a betting round are you forced to check? Also are you not allowed to fold?

Thx. :)

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2011, 06:57:09 PM »
Also if everyone here is saying they would rarely use passive play as a rule in this situation then how would the hand be played out? What would the difference be? Would they be allowed to raise or what?

chet

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2011, 07:08:22 PM »
Wolfster:

If there is no provision for passive play, then the ONLY effect on the current hand is that EVERY OTHER player knows what the offending players hole cards are and that player has no knowledge of the other players hole cards.  This is a HUGE disadvantage to the offending player.  The offending player can be as aggressive as he/she sees fit and can bet, raise, re-raise, etc.  In short, there are no restrictions to the options available to the offending player for the play of the current hand.

Any penalty, under TDA rules, would be applied at the end of the current hand.

I don't know what else we can say to make this 'crystal clear'.

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2011, 09:21:17 PM »
I think we all have to look at the serious damage that exposing even one card can do. Handing out a penalty on the next hand offers no protection to players in the hand where cards were exposed. Players may have the opportunity to see that they are now holding a hand that can no longer be beat. This is a far more serious issue than worrying about the guy that dropped his cards. It's too easy to show your partner your hand. Your tournament life could be at stake. I've posted a suggestion for rule changes that you might look at.

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2011, 05:33:19 AM »
So basically, if this was a deliberate exposure, you would all rule the hand dead?

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2011, 06:29:02 AM »
No Andy, not the way I see it, at least not the first offense. TDA Rules 40 and 42 cover your situation and it states that the hand is live. Disqualification from the event after the hand is possible (according to the rules) but that is for repeat offenders. I always try to focus on the intent of the player; if it's intentional then I believe you have more leverage in your decision. Your original question stated that it was accidental....now how we make that determination, with certainty, is another question. Imagine me asking how you could ask such a question? I'm glad you did.

Take a look at my suggestion in that section. I know it would be asking a lot to make such a change but, I'm trying to express the seriousness of any exposed card, intentional or otherwise. There are rules for future repremand, but very little for the damage done while the hand is in progress.

That's how I see it.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 08:26:45 AM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2011, 05:56:16 PM »
I think Chet said it right.  We don't use passive play in these situations.  The player is simply left at a disadvantage in the hand and gets to play it how he sees fit under the circumstances, which would include folding in turn.

The penalty comes after the hand and repeat offenders would get stronger penalties up to disqualification.  Though I think it is most frequently unintentional and playing out the hand at a disadvantage is almost penalty enough.

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »
Jasper Too,
 I agree with you, and Chet, and everyone else, but what about the players affected during the hand in progress? So he plays with an exposed hand, and he is at a disadvantage, but what about protection for the non-offending players? Let's think this one out. We've had one response from the top brass in the last 200 posts, so I guess we're on our own.

W0lfster

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2011, 06:57:34 PM »
This is all crystal clear now but are you sure this would apply to cash games because as Stuart has mentioned in previous posts, "In tournaments its the whole game and cash its the hand in progress" which tells me that in a cash game the cards would be mucked in this situation.

Nick C

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2011, 09:05:37 PM »
Andy,
  You say it is crystal clear to you, but it isn't for me....in fact, it's getting worse. If the player was dropping out of the hand, or folding when the cards were exposed then they would be announced by the dealer and mucked. If the player wanted to continue playing after he accidentally exposed his cards, his hand is live. Stuart mentioned some rules in Europe where cards were killed as soon as they were exposed. I know of no such rule in any cardroom in the United States, for cash games or tournaments, that kills a players hand for accidental exposure.

chet

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Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2011, 09:50:58 PM »
Wolfster:  I have searched RRoP, v11 and I cannot find anything that deals with cards exposed by a player, during a cash game, other than a very brief statement as follows from section 3, Irregularities, #12:

"12.   Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card."  I added the emphasis to the 3rd sentence. 

In section 15, Tournaments, #22, RRoP says:

"22.   Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized."

So, my answer to your question regarding cash games would be to check the 'House Rules'.  If the topic is not addressed, perhaps it should be.

Hope this helps!!