Author Topic: Cards exposed during hand  (Read 24466 times)

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2011, 09:44:10 AM »
Fair enough, and house rules are house rules. Although in a tournament anyway the hand is ruled live even if exposed, it leaves the player at a huge disadvantage and allowing him/her to check/bet raise call fold all in just seems obscure to me. The players know what you have so I dont see why the player isnt skipped if it isnt a dead hand until showdown, and leave any bets after the person who exposed their cards into a side pot. Although may not be the rules it just seems weird to me.

I appreciate this topic has been discussed in great detail and that is why I thank those of you who have commented but as a person wanting to start a job in being a croupier, I can only express my confusion as a beginner.

Dave Lamb

  • TDA Founding Member
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 65
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2011, 08:22:10 PM »
Most of the responses I have read seem to feel that a penalty for exposing your cards is a small price to pay for disrupting play. I normally go right to a one round penalty in all no limit games because exposed cards do influence how a hand plays out. Regardless of the players intent, it needs to be clear that a consequence DOES occur whenever action gets "messed up". A one round penalty with antes can be a very devastating consequence- it can cripple a player's chip stack and on some occasions has resulted in the offender being blinded out.

Remember that the penalty is supposed to be a speeding ticket, a fine paid in chips as a reminder that you will not be allowed to interfer with the normal course of play. We do not want it to be a death sentence for running a stop sign. I contend that one round or more can be a huge penalty...

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3142
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2011, 01:47:10 AM »
Dave,
 What about the hand in progress? We are all in agreement about some type of penalty in a tournament. My concerns are for the protection of non-offending players involved in the current hand. How do you feel about allowing players the option of playing for the pot (all-in) or suspending further betting? In cash games, I've actually stopped any further betting in similar situations.

Any thoughts?

Dave Lamb

  • TDA Founding Member
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 65
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2011, 06:49:04 PM »
I like to think I have answers for tournament situations but do not want to presume I know anything more about "live" game rules than anyone else. The forum focus is on tournaments, we obviously have a full plate trying to hone the wording , understanding, and interpretation of them.

I will say this in response to Nick, I have asked offenders to leave our live games because they were constantly acting out of turn and not protecting the other players. 

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3142
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2011, 08:48:28 PM »
Thanks Dave,
 I try not to initiate the cash game but, so many questions are directed at them. I like your answer.

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 08:44:17 AM »
Another question, if your hand isnt dead when exposed during a hand, do you still have the option to fold when it is your turn?

Desi

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 30
    • The Fortune Rooms
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 09:10:19 AM »
Another question, if your hand isnt dead when exposed during a hand, do you still have the option to fold when it is your turn?

Yes.

mooredog

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2011, 07:02:01 AM »
We also impose a one round penalty for intentionally exposing a card or cards. If it appears to be accidental we issue a warning for the first time.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3142
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2011, 11:34:46 AM »
We are all in agreement that some penalty or warning should be issued to the player that exposed their cards. Is there anyone that would object to suspending any further betting? Or, allowing non-offending players the option of declaring themselves in for the amount of the pot before the card was exposed?

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2011, 02:15:38 PM »
Yes!

Why not just follow the existing penalty system.  I fail to see what is wrong with what we already have.  Adding other options, while nice, will just confuse things.  Pretty soon, someone will be wanting to rule a player all-in because their hole cards were not protected or something just as bad.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3142
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2011, 02:48:44 PM »
Chet,
 I'm not objecting to the current penalty system. I am mearly trying to include an additional fix for the hand in progress. I like the penalty for exposing a card. I just don't see how it helps the players that could be affected in the hand where the infraction occurred. Dealing the player out for one hand, or four rotations, or disqualifying him is not going to help the player that busted-out because of his exposed hand. The intent of the player, along with his reputation should always be considered when making a decision. I thought that stopping any further bets would be a good way to prevent further damage to any non-offending player.

Chet, I've got you down for; Leave the damn rule alone, Nick, are you nuts?

Anybody else?

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2011, 04:33:33 PM »
Nick:  I really don't understand your line of reasoning behind the following statement: 

"I just don't see how it helps the players that could be affected in the hand where the infraction occurred. Dealing the player out for one hand, or four rotations, or disqualifying him is not going to help the player that busted-out because of his exposed hand."

An exposed card for one player puts that player at a HUGE DISadvantage compared to the rest of the players.  Every other player in the hand now has a great amount of information they did not have prior.  I fail to see the need to penalize the player who exposed a card inadvertently. 

If a player busts out, because he has MORE information than he otherwise would, isn't it more likely he would have busted out anyway?

I cannot remember a situation where an exposed card caused a player to bust out of a tournament.  It has probably happened, but is it frequent enough to warrant the creation of a new rule and/or penalty.

That's all folks!!

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3142
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Cards exposed during hand
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2011, 05:12:03 PM »
Chet,
 Please, take some time to look over my explanation on earlier replies. If you don't see it the way I do, that's fine. I respect your opinion and your answers are always; by the book and very well written. Most of the time, an exposed card does not change the outcome of a hand, however, I think that we have to make sure that the offending player knows how serious it could be.