unclear action - Call or Raise?

[pineforest]

I have been polling some of my local TD’s lately about the following scenario which happened to me last week.  Tournament blinds are 400 - 800 it folds around small blind who says nothing throws out a 5000 unit chip and takes back 2 of the 4 (100 unit chips).  I then get called to the table listen to the scenario and I rule that it is a call because the player threw out 1 oversized chip and said nothing. The player complained that he removed 2 of the small blind chips while putting in the 5000.  I told the player that if he would have picked up all the chips from the sb and then thrown them back in with the 5000 it would be a raise, and I again ruled it a call. 

Test yourself  -  Call or Raise?

Tournament, Blinds are 400 - 800. It folds around to the small blind who says nothing and then -
1- The sb does not touch the 400 and throws in a 5000 unit chip.  Call or Raise?
2- The sb takes all 4 of the 100 unit chips and throws out a 5000 unit chip. Call or Raise?
3-The sb takes off  2 of the 4, (100 unit chips) and throws in a 5000 unit chip.  Call or Raise?

I see these as calls

Next

Tournament blinds are 400 - 800  utg +2 raises to 2200, it folds around to the small blind who says nothing and then -
4- The sb does not touch the 400 and throws in a 5000 unit chip.  Call or Raise?
5 -The sb takes off  2 of the 4, (100 unit chips) and throws in a 5000 unit chip.  Call or Raise?

I see these as calls as well 

Why is it that I find so many players and some TD’s who disagree with my ruling??  I got to believe you folks will agree with me. 

TDA Rule # 32. Oversized Chip
Anytime when facing a bet (or blind), placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise is not first verbally declared. To raise with a single oversized chip, a declaration must be made before the chip hits the table surface. If a raise is declared (but not an amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum allowable for the chip.

Am I missing something here??

I’ve said it before and I say it again, If a player makes their action unclear, then they will have no idea what ruling they will get from the TD.  But it would be nice if we could clarify this.

I would appreciate your input.

Thanks

[Nick C]

I agree with you on everything. The only time a player is allowed to remove chips from the pot is when they are completing a call and removing their smaller prior bet with the correct amount or a chip that covers the wager. Placing a single oversized chip into the pot does not indicate to the dealer, or other players that a raise was intended. Leaving chips in the pot and tossing an oversized chip is just a call. Players have an obligation to make their intentions clear. Believe me, they'll get the message, and the next time you will know if they want to raise.

[Stuart Murray]

pine,

All your interpretations are correct,

The chips that are already in the pot as the SB are part of the 'POT' and not part of the players bet (albeit their forced bet), which is why I always sweep blinds and antes into the middle before dealing out the hole cards and starting the betting round.

Players must make their intentions clear or they are at the mercy of the TD, and you would have to be a poor TD to rule a raise in any of your examples.

Regards
Stuart

[JasperToo]

All calls!  It amazes me as well that there are a number of folks that get that one confused when they have blind chips out there.

[pineforest]

Nick, I agree, they will, and do learn their lesson in my room when they make their actions unclear.

Stewart, I recently heard that a lot of places in Europe will bring in the blinds before they deal.  I have never seen that done in this town.  I'm not sure if one is better than the other.  Im glad you both agree with my call.

Thanks

[Dave Lamb]

Wow, a unanimous consensus!

Just this tiny item to add, why are the players being allowed to reach into the pot and remove any chips?

[Nick C]

Hello Dave,
 Welcome back. The way I see it, and teach it; the only time a player can go into the pot is to remove the short bet in front of him (not in the center pot), before all bets for that round are complete. It happens all the time. The best example would be; blinds 25/50, checks around to SB he takes back his 25 and tosses in a single 100.....it's a call and the dealer will give him his 50 change. Technically the player can NEVER put his hands in the pot, however, what I've described is a regular occurance that is accepted everywhere. I will say that the player usually announces "call" when he completes his BB amount, so that helps.
 The more I look at Pineforest's example, I can see where both #3 and #5 could be construed as a raise. The best fix is for the player to tell everyone what his intentions are. When that doesn't happen, the next best thing would be for the dealer to stop the action and clarify the bet before another player acts.

All calls is the answer, if they intended to raise, they should learn in a good lesson and, I guarantee they'll get it right next time.

[pineforest]

Hi Dave,
In Las Vegas I know of no room that pulls blinds in before the action, so players are acustom to touching the chips in their "betting area" and it is not seen as touching the pot.
#3 and #5 are the ones that other TD's have said their ruling would be raise but I don't see how they can rule that way.  the other example i use is the player reaches out and grabs the sb chips in front of him but 1 or 2 chips slip between their fingers and get left behind as they toss in the 5K chip, they then grab the other chips.  are you going to rule that a raise too?  The way i see the rule is, a single oversized chip is being put in the pot, I dont care what they do with the chips in front of them unless the pick them up and toss them in with the oversized chip. otherwise its a call.