Author Topic: Missed small blind  (Read 7987 times)

MrScott

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Missed small blind
« on: December 21, 2009, 11:05:00 AM »
  At the casino i work at, we recently started using the 'dead small and dead button' rule. Now, for example. in a cash game, if a player posts his BB and goes broke on the hand and he tells the dealer 'im going to get more chips, I"ll be right back.' He misses his small blind and the button and comes back in the next hand. Question, is the small blind he posts 'live' or 'dead'?
 

chet

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 02:53:59 PM »
  At the casino i work at, we recently started using the 'dead small and dead button' rule. Now, for example. in a cash game, if a player posts his BB and goes broke on the hand and he tells the dealer 'im going to get more chips, I"ll be right back.' He misses his small blind and the button and comes back in the next hand. Question, is the small blind he posts 'live' or 'dead'?

Mr. Scott:  Per Robert's Rules of Poker, V. 10, Chapter 2, RULES FOR USING BLINDS, sub. 10 "A player who misses any or all blinds can resume play by either posting all the blinds missed or waiting for the big blind.  If you choose to post the total amount of the blinds, an amount up to the size of the minimum opening bet is live.  The remainder is taken by the dealer to the center of the pot and is not part of your bet.  When it is your next turn to act, you have the option to raise."

My interpretation would the that the "posted" small blind is live, the player can choose to fold, call or raise when it is his/her turn to act.

Hope this helps!

pokerfish

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 10:40:31 PM »
Sorry Chet, have to disagree. When you post a small blind only because you missed it (why else would you be posting it?) it is dead. A SB only post is always dead....
Jan
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chet

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 11:13:43 PM »
I will defer to your expertise, but I don't see how that reconciles with RRoP which I quoted in my answer.

btw:  I don't mind the disagreement, but I would sure like to understand the reasoning why  ;)

Stuart Murray

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 04:50:10 AM »
I'd agree with Jan, I have always treated a missed sb as dead I don't understand why RRoP says that and it does not make much sense to me.  The blind is missed as sb and therefore from a previous pot, the player is posting the sb as dead to make up what he already owes the table and this should not have any influence on him playing the current hand. 

Regards Stuart
Stuart Murray
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pokerfish

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 08:10:31 AM »
Just a for instance.... why not miss you SB everytime and then post is behind the B and get position? It always is dead.... keeps from shots being taken....
Jan Fisher
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chet

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 10:54:35 AM »
Ok, Ok, Ok, Ok  I capitulate!!  I understand what Jan and Stuart are saying and it while it makes sense, it doesn't seem to me to follow what Bob C. has in RRoP.

MrScott

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 11:12:37 AM »
  I do see Chets point, but I think Jan summed it up perfectly in saying, 'if its live, why not just miss the SB every round and pay it behind the button'
  Thanks everyone...

chet

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 02:31:16 PM »
I have a response from Bob Ciaffone, author of Robert's Rules of Poker, which I have forwarded to the TDA Board for their consideration.  I have not posted Bob's response yet as I want to give the Board time to consider.  Also, this is really not a tournament, but a cash game issue.  Just another reason, in my little pea brain at least, to hope we can come to a consensus before a decision is posted.  Just remember, the final decision may very well be that we agree to disagree.   :D

Chet

pokerfish

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 03:49:26 PM »
Chet, the rules won't be the same for live regardless. If a player is not at the table, his blind is taken and he is dealt in of course. Live it can certainly be up to each cardroom what they want to do. I've read Bob's email and while I know the situation he is talking about, I think this finally has become a standard rule and don't see any reason to change it. That said, each cardroom may decide for themselves of course....
Jan
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chet

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Re: Missed small blind
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 08:56:41 PM »
I agree with Jan that the rules for live will not be the same as tournaments.  I also agree that each cardroom, can make up their own rules.  

Dave Lamb said to me in an email, "Discussing "live play" rules on the forum is good but the TDA is not trying to standardize them. Many cardrooms have liberal or unique procedures in an attempt to maintain an edge on the competition.
 
Our goal should still be focused on getting the 44 rules accepted into use and properly administered."

That said, I think it appropriate to post the reply I received from Bob Ciaffone earlier today:

"You may post this response.

In RROP, the missed small blind is live. Casino and online practice has not settled on one sole generally accepted method.

I prefer the small blind to be live because no sane and smart player would wish to miss both the small blind and the button and post a live small blind if he could have simply played the small blind and the button for the same money. Something happened—like a hurry call to the bathroom or going broke.

While there has been a player in the past (“Bottoms”) that deliberately ducked his small blind, I believe he did it mainly to annoy the other players, not because he gained anything. The rule about the small blind being live was changed because of him. He is now dead, and the rule on the SB being dead should have been buried with him.
" (Italics supplied)

RRoP's position is that the missed Small Blind should be live.  However, there appears to be a substantial group who believe the missed Small Blind should be dead.  Arguments can be made for both positions.  Personally, I am in the RRoP camp.  I see no reason to penalize the player who missed the Small Blind inadvertently.  That said, I would not allow any player to get into a pattern of successive or numerous missed Small Blinds.

So to answer MrScott, do whatever you believe is the best solution in your cardroom.  My only caution would be that you carefully develop a rule covering the situation, document it in your "House Rules" and apply it consistently.

Hope this helps!!