POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Non-TDA Tournament and General Poker Rules Discussion

Pre flop raise

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michaelgtjr:
Here is the situation, Blinds are at 100 and 200. Under the Gun goes all in for 250. Rule we use states "Any initial bet on the flop, turn or river must be at least the amount of the big blind. All raises must be at least double the previous bet, with the exception of an all-in. Pre-flop, the initial bet is the big blind. Therefore, the minimum raise would be double the big blind, with the exception of an all-in."

I argue the bet is 400 others argue the bet is 250.

Please vote and state your case.

Nick C:
michaelgtjr,
 This one is easy. I will assume that the game is no-limit. The limit, however in this situation is irrelevant. The next player may fold, call the all-in amount of 250, or raise. This is where the big question comes in. What is the minimum raise allowed? We will need to know the limit, and then there could still be debate as to what the minimum raise must be. In a fixed-bet game or a structured game, the raise is not 50% so the next player may call or, he must complete the raise to a total of 400. In no-limit and pot-limit, the rules are too complicated for me to explain.
 A simple answer to your question is; 250 required to call, and it is not considered a raise, it is action only.

DCJ001:
Here's a slide from a TDA presentation from last year, with a similar question, that may help you with this type of question:

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9568/tdaallinlessthanfullrai.pdf

michaelgtjr:
This is a pre-flop no limit situation.

MikeB:
Hi Michael... See DC's slide. If the BB is 200, then that's the minimum bet (or raise if the bet is 200). In no-limit you can't "complete" an all-in that's less than a full bet or raise because each betting action is considered a complete action. SO... we have an "all-in wager" of 250 and the minimum bet or raise is 200. If you want to raise the all-in, you have to make it at least a full raise (200 in this case), for a total of at least 450.

To recap the action: there's a Full Bet of 200 (the BB), then an all-in wager of 250 (which is 50 over the BB... since it's only 50, it doesn't change the minimum full raise amount of 200), and you are now facing a bet of 250. Since the all-in wager didn't exceed the minimum raise (200), the 200 minimum raise is still in effect. If you want to raise you have to at least raise the minimum (200) on top of the all-in wager to make it a total bet of at least 450. The reason that 400 isn't the answer in a no-limit game is that 400 here represents a "completion" of the all-ins bet, and there's no such concept as completing the bet in no-limit poker. hope this helps, thanks alot for an important illustration!

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