Author Topic: "intent to raise rule"  (Read 2891 times)

MrScott

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
"intent to raise rule"
« on: December 09, 2010, 09:43:16 AM »
"Intent to raise rule"

Can anyone tell me if you use this rule in your casino. Im having a hard time inforcing this one.
Any money over and above the original bet is considered "intent to raise"
Example i had the other night.... $1/$2 blind no-limit game.  Heads up on the river, player A bets $100, player B without saying a word, pushes a stack of red forward.  The dealer cuts the stack down and realizes the stack was $105. Now, according to our "new" rule, player B has 2 options. complete the raise to $200 or fold and forfiet the $105.

I have always inforced the 100% or its a call rule and this seems a little extreme.  I just want to know if anyone else enforces this and how to justify it to a player. Thanks,Scott

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: "intent to raise rule"
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 11:39:09 AM »
Hello Scott.  Rules regarding bets and raises are a major issue for the TDA. In the past there was a variety of regulations pertaining to bet/raise procedures, depending on which house/tournament a player went to. The TDA has tried since inception to standardize the process for tournaments. You can find the current TDA-recognized bet/raise procedures in rules 29 through 36 of the 2009 Rule Standards (version 2). A convenient pocket-sized PDF is at the following link:
http://appservicesonline.com/PokerTDABlog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Poker_TDARules_2009-Version2_Final_Handout_pdf.pdf

The TDA bet-raise rules most applicable to the situation you describe are rules 30, 31, 32, and 33.  I would summarize how they apply in your situation as follows:
1) A raise can be either by a) declaring raise. Then putting the amount out in one motion. OR b) declaring a specific amount first, then putting that amount out in however many motions you need to get the correct amount OR c) by silently pushing out chips in one motion (with no prior declaration or gesture of any sort).  

2) Now, what is "declare a raise"? It absolutely is a verbal statement "raise". BUt a TD/dealer might also bind a player to a raise with a statement like 'bump it up" or a hand-gesture like thumbs-up. This gets into Rule 30 which states "it's players responsibility to make his intentions clear". If a player does something OTHER than clearly state "raise", then it's his fault not the TDs if the TD interprets that as an intent to raise when he didn't want to.

3) If we have declaration (intent) to raise then if he puts out anything less than a min-raise it has to be increased to a min raise.

4) Now, lets say we don't have a declare of any sort (Situation 1-c above) , we only have chips pushed out. A) If he's facing a check then by pushing out any amount of chips he's intending to bet, so that's at least a min bet if he puts out anything. B) If he's facing a bet, then if he puts out anything less than the bet he has to bring it up to a call. C) If he puts out more than the bet then it's a call OR a raise depending on Rule 32 (for single chip) or Rule 33 (for multiple chips).  Hope this helps, thanks alot for the question!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 11:53:37 AM by MikeB »

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: "intent to raise rule"
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 11:55:00 AM »
TDA rule # 31. applies to tournaments, and is also usually applied in respected poker rooms:

Raises
A raise must be at least the size of the previous raise. If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed. In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

In the original example in which a player bet $100, and another player pushed forward $105, without saying "raise," I would rule the second player's action to be a call, and push back the extra $5.

mooredog

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: "intent to raise rule"
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2010, 07:39:36 AM »
DC is correct. If the push of chips without a word is more than 50% more (even though that would sometimes pertain to limit holdem) I'd take it as an intent to raise and make the player put in a min raise. If less than 50% I'd deem it a call.

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: "intent to raise rule"
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2010, 09:49:52 AM »
DC is correct. If the push of chips without a word is more than 50% more (even though that would sometimes pertain to limit holdem) I'd take it as an intent to raise and make the player put in a min raise. If less than 50% I'd deem it a call.

Actually, If the push of chips without a word is more than 50% or more, a minimum raise should be required.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: "intent to raise rule"
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 02:19:59 PM »
I have to agree with DCJ001 and Mooredog. I want to add a couple situations that would also apply to the 50% rule. A raise must be at least the SIZE OF THE BET, or the size of the raise in front of the player wishing to raise, or re-raise. The exception to the 50% rule is a single over-sized chip. Example, Player A bets 15, Player B says nothing but tosses a single chip valued at 25, it is only a call.
 I also have some issues with TDA rule #31 that I have discussed on other posts. I am not in agreement with the part about not reopening the betting to a player that has already acted. A player that checks when first to act, will have all options open to him if another player bets.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: "intent to raise rule"
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 04:57:55 PM »
i'm with the majority on this one, it's a call, unless the stack is 50% or more of a full raise, in which case it would be a min raise.

It's easy to drop one too many chips into the betting area which if I was to use that rule would mean a lot of pointless raising, or folding going on.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director