Author Topic: Disclose contents of live or folded hands  (Read 18277 times)

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2010, 10:57:42 PM »
If you look at my post #12, you will see that I was talking about Buchman's hand.

Your next response (post #13), was the one that you asked Matt about.

Based on my question, I see Matt refering to Buchman's hand because that was the only hand that I ever mentioned as remaining live even if it were turned over on the table before the other player called.

My question, as posed to Matt, as copied and pasted from my previous post, did not refer to Buchman's hand:

Quote
One perspective is that the player who disclosed that he held an ace was just making common table chatter. Another viewpoint is that disclosing one's holdings, or showing one's cards when the action is incomplete violates the rules.

What do you think?

Matt's response to my question, with regard to the caller in the hand, who disclosed that he held an ace, as copied and pasted from my previous post, was:

Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2010, 02:51:18 PM »
DCJ001,
 Your QUOTE to Matt that you posted on Reply #30 was never seen by anyone on this subject until now. I'd like to know how Matt feels about this incident, and who was at fault and what he would have done.

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2010, 07:29:01 PM »
DCJ001,
Your QUOTE to Matt that you posted on Reply #30 was never seen by anyone on this subject until now.

I'd like to know how Matt feels about this incident, and who was at fault and what he would have done.

I posted Matt's answer to my question, as I posted it, on September 22, 2010. It has been seen by everyone reading this thread for the last six days.

If you'd like to know how Matt feels about this incident, and who was at fault and what he would have done, you can reread my question to him and his answer to me, as follows. Or you can ask him yourself.
Quote
Hey Matt.

I'd like your opinion about the following hand:



Quote
After one player pushed all in, he asked the other player if he held an ace. While considering a call, the other player said that he did hold an ace, possibly/probably attempting to get a reaction from the other player.

TDA rules state:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

One perspective is that the player who disclosed that he held an ace was just making common table chatter. Another viewpoint is that disclosing one's holdings, or showing one's cards when the action is incomplete violates the rules.

What do you think?

Matt's response to me was:

Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2010, 04:35:45 AM »
  Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
ę Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 07:08:40 pm Ľ  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCJ001,

After you answered all of my questions, this is still how I feel.

  I'm trying to point out that many of the rules are not intended for the situations that we try to use them for. I think that the disclosure rules are for players that show cards to a player (when there is still action pending and all players have not seen the cards), or they announce what they had when they folded. These are serious issues. I don't think that is the same situation as described in the initial question. Remember, one player is all-in and there is still a card to come. The hand was not complete in any way. I wonder if it would have made a difference if Eric Buchman went all-in, then turned his cards over for his opponent to see before he called?

IMO, neither player did anything wrong, but if you find fault with one player, I would blame Buchman.

What you're saying is; after going all-in, a player can ask the opposing player what he has, but if he responds, he warants a penallty?

I guess no other members want to respond. They're leaving it up to us.

One of the biggest problems IMO is, the answers are just as vauge and unclear as some of the rules. Why not name the guilty party instead of saying "he definetly broke the rules." If the answer were more clear, we wouldn't be continuing this argument.

 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 08:00:15 AM by Nick C »

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2010, 11:12:23 AM »
DCJ001,

 Would you care to identify yourself? I offered you a chance to vent, our say whatever you want by sending me an email, but you won't do that. If Matt or someone else from the TDA would have responded this issue could have been settleded log ago.
 I intend to respond to subjects that pertain to poker, not the insults from some unknown member who uses letters and numbers for identification.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 08:01:45 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2010, 09:07:15 PM »
ENOUGH ALREADY!!

Both of you please be respectful.  I think this is one of those situations where you two should agree to disagree.  Perhaps someone will propose some clarifying language that can be brought up for discussion at the next Summit to resolve this type of situation.

Lets let this dog lie and move on.

Chet
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 06:11:48 AM by chet »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2010, 10:37:12 AM »
Agreed with Chet

Regards
Stu
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2010, 10:42:11 AM »
Agreed with Chet.

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2010, 01:45:24 PM »
I also agree, and I've sent an email to Chet thanking him for reminding me what this forum is for.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 01:54:51 PM by Nick C »

Matt Savage

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2010, 07:19:10 PM »
Wow, I apologize for being absent for too long as I have been on the road for 45 days. Nick, I have to say here that I agree with DJC001 and that the player disclosing the hand is the one that gets penalized. I wish I had seen this sooner so that the back and forth would not have gotten out of hand and I do feel that BOTH of your contributions have been good for the forum.

I think rule #41 is pretty clear about this point

a couple more points

A tournament is NEVER heads up until 2 players are left and at that point you ARE free to talk about your hand. Before that point every decision you make affects the equity of everybody in the tournament.

You are NOT allowed to lie about your hand or tell the truth with action still pending

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2010, 07:32:34 PM »
Matt,
 I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about a tournament is never heads up until two players are left. I always said that heads up is more open because no player can be caught in the middle. The situation above rules nothing wrong with asking a player what he has, and it's okay if he tells you, but he can't show you, is that right?

 I also don't understand exactly what you are saying about NOT being allowed to lie about your hand, or tell the truth with action pending. Does that mean that you can tell the truth about your hand after you bet, or before you bet? I guess I don't get it.
I saw it as a player going all-in, with one card to come and oposing one player. While the player is contemplating whether he will call, the all-in player asks if he has an ace. He said "yes, I call "and showed the ace nine. Are you saying that, had he just responded with an answer (before calling), instead of showing the card, it would have been okay?

I have looked over your last statment and have come to the conclusion that, you can't talk about any cards you are holding. If you can't lie and can't tell the truth.

I thought that I would modify this post rather than start another. The following is what leads to my confusion. This is a post from a prior incident on the Hendon Mob Site: Situation: On the bubble, in a big NLH competition, Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ĎIíve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!í You are called to the table, how do you rule?

Matt Savage:
This is one of those situations where it does happen and I would... strange, strangely enough I would go to the table and see the guys hand and its one of those things where... Iím not a fan of this if you're lying its OK and if your telling the truth then its not but I would see if the player had Aces and if he had Aces then I would give him a penalty that would definitely affect his spot in this tournament and you know I would let the hand play out and... I would ask to see the cards after the hand was finished.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 08:06:58 AM by Nick C »

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2010, 01:19:46 PM »
Hi fellows,

Wow, Iím sorry I missed this last month. Iím just glad you were not in the same room together. We would have to call the floor on you.

Any way, I had a similar incident happen at a WSOP event in New Orleans. The floor came over and told the responding player that if he turns his cards over and has an Ace he would be penalized. The player turned over K-T, no penalty. The floor then instructed the player asking the question that he couldnít ask again without receiving a penalty.

I donít think we should have too many instances where we have rules when there are 3 or 4 players and another one when there are only 2 players. The asking and telling contents of a hand should not be allowed in either case.

Good Luck,
Martin