Author Topic: Disclose contents of live or folded hands  (Read 17778 times)

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2010, 09:39:59 PM »
Nick:

As far as I am concerned if a player violates a rule and a penalty should be assessed, it doesn't make any difference to me what round we are in.  It could be the last two players standing at the final table, it makes not a speck of difference in my opinion.

If some players know that you won't enforce the tournament rules after some point, they will wait until the magic time and push the envelope.  Pretty soon you have a problem of not running events that are on the 'up and up', and your reputation is shot.  I know that I will not play in any house, event or with any TD that has a questionable reputation.

Hope this helps!!

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3162
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2010, 05:25:05 AM »
Chet,
 If you have players that are causing that many problems and are repeat offenders, they shouldn't be allowed to play in any tournaments. How do you penalize a player for one round when there are only two players left?

 We need rules but, give them a warning first. If they don't listen or become repeat offenders, throw the book at them.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2010, 10:36:57 AM »
I would give a penalty to the buchman's opponent in this situation as he has violated the one player to a hand rule, buchman did nothing wrong in my book by asking questions but his opponent stating he did have the ace exposed his hand.

Irrespective of whether heads up or not I do not allow players to divulge their holdings until showdown.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3162
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2010, 11:59:03 AM »
Stuart,

 If Buchman's opponent lied about his holding would you give him a penalty? How does that violate one player to a hand rule? IMO Buchman did nothing wrong, and neither did his opponent. Why? Because they were head to head.

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2010, 12:18:47 PM »
I'll go along with that. I often wonder how they handle all those penalties when the games are down to only a few people. I was never a big fan of penalties in later rounds of tournaments, especially when that player is sitting out, and the next player eliminated puts him in the money.

The number of players at the table, or the tournament, is irrelevant.

A one round sit-out penalty has basically the same result either way. And by not assessing penalties in the later rounds of tournaments, when players break the rules, a TD would be encouraging anarchy. Players should believe that, if they do something that they should not, they will pay the price.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3162
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2010, 12:44:57 PM »
Why don't you tell me how you hand out a one round penalty when there are two players left in the tournament? How can you say the number of players is irrelevent? Also, instead of saying the same thing over and over can you tell me how the one player per hand rule was violated. Matt Savage wanted to penalize Buchman and Stuart wants to penalize the other guy. Can you lie about your holding during table talk? What's next, only the truth may be spoken when answering a question from an opponent.

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2010, 05:10:58 PM »
1. Why don't you tell me how you hand out a one round penalty when there are two players left in the tournament?

2. How can you say the number of players is irrelevent?

3. Also, instead of saying the same thing over and over can you tell me how the one player per hand rule was violated.

4. Matt Savage wanted to penalize Buchman and Stuart wants to penalize the other guy.

5. Can you lie about your holding during table talk?

6. What's next, only the truth may be spoken when answering a question from an opponent.

Nick. You're making assumptions which may not be true. And I'm surprised that you're asking the questions that you're asking. I'll do my best to address your concerns one at a time:

1. When heads-up, a player sits out for one round by not playing the next two hands, and losing the corresponding blinds and antes. If I were a TD in this situation, the two hands would not be dealt. The blinds and antes would be put in by both players, and the two pots would be pushed to the winning player. Then the next hand would be dealt.

2. The number of players is irrelevant. Sitting out for one round can happen with any number of players.

3. I never said that the one player per hand rule was violated. The rule that was violated was the rule that players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not disclose contents of live or folded hands,

4. Matt didn't say that he would have penalized Buchman. He would have penalized the player who said that he held an ace, possibly/probably looking to get a reaction from Buchman.

5. Yes. Players can lie about their hands. But the TDA rules state that players cannot disclose the cards that they hold when the action is incomplete.

6. No.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 05:18:14 PM »
lying (or telling the truth) about your holdings I view both as violation of one player to a hand.  There is nothing wrong with asking questions at the table when heads-up, however phrases such as I put you on Ace King from the flop etc should be avoided, as again they may cause a re-action.

Two examples I do not find acceptable:
q"What have you got?" a"Just a big pair", the answering player then goes on to showdown the nut flush - misleading but under tda a violation so could be liable to a penalty.
q"Have you got an ace?" a"could have, then again could just have 5 high" in this situation i would say that only the questioning player has violated etiquette as the answer was deceptive

Issuing a one round penalty when the tournament is heads-up will simply be a case of transferring the cost of the orbit to the other player (orbit = the total amount of blinds and antes a player requires to have one round of the button).

I think the best approach (unless the players are familiar with each other (where the envelope often gets pushed in just the right ways)) is to issue penalties for getting involved in conversations regarding your or others holdings.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3162
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2010, 07:26:49 PM »
DCJ001
 I enjoy the discussion and I will always voice my opinion when I think I'm right. First of all, you miss quoted Matt Savage. Secondly, are you saying that the blinds and ante's of the player you are penalizing are surrenderd to the other player, uncontested? Number three; You did mention the one player to a hand rule on one of your earlier posts. I don't understand how a player can lie about his holding, but if he tells the truth he is violating a TDA rule?

The fact that we are in such a heated discusion about Rule #41 indicates to me that it needs some work. If it is unclear to us, how do we expect players to understand the meaning? I once heard a responce on another post that mentioned the following, "any player announcing their hand to the table was the same as showing the cards to the table." The only difference is, they could be lying.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 02:55:04 PM by Nick C »

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2010, 11:58:17 AM »
DCJ001
I enjoy the discusion and I will always voice my opinion when I think I'm right.

1. First of all you miss quoted Matt Savage.

2. Secondly, are you saying that the blinds and ante's of the player you are penalizing are surrenderd to the other player, uncontested?

3. Number three; You did mention the one player to a hand rule on one of your earlier posts.

4. I don't understand how a player can lie about his holding, but if he tells the truth he is violating a TDA rule?

5. The fact that we are in such a heated discusion about Rule #41 indicates to me that it needs some work. If it is unclear to us, how do we expect players to understand the meaning?

6. I once heard a responce on another post that mentioned the following, "any player announcing their hand to the table was the same as showing the cards to the table." The only difference is, they could be lying.

1. I did not misquote Matt Savage.

2. When a player sits out for one round, he/she plays the blinds  and antes for the entire round. While he sits out for the entire round, the player is unable to compete for these blinds and antes.

3. "One player to a hand" is one of four elements referred to in TDA rule 41. I never said that "one player to a hand" applies in this hand. Nor did I say that either player should be penalized for violating this element of rule 41.

4. If you sincerely don't understand how a player can lie about his holding, but if he tells the truth he is violating a TDA rule, you are either new to poker, or you have been receiving guidance from confused individuals over a period of time, or you have not read and made an effort to understand the TDA rules.

5. Players should be expected to understand the rules. If they don't, competent TDs have the responsibility to enforce the rules, and to offer clarity to encourage an understanding of the rules. One of the problems with this is that many players express their own interpretations of the rules in the hopes that rulings will be made in their favor. And some dealers, floor people, and TDs have their own interpretations of the rules to make rulings in accordane with they ways that they feel that poker should be played.

6. This goes back to concern 4. in this post. If a player truthfully announces the cards that he/she holds, it's the same as showing his/her cards, which is against the rules. And, if he/she is lying, he/she has not shown his/her cards. Not showing one's hand is not against the rules.

If anyone has a difficult time in understanding these concepts, after attaining TDA certification, I wonder if they had help in completing the test (which is not easy), or if they did a lot of guessing and just got lucky.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3162
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2010, 12:14:19 PM »
DCJ001,

 I guess that you and I will continue to disagree. It's unfortunate when comon sense and logic are cast aside in favor of a rule that you don't understand. If the players just played the game instead of "talking trash" and throwing the BS around, the game would be fun and entertaining like it used to be. As far as my credentials, I was teaching dealers when you were an infant. If you would like to continue this discusion without annoying other members, send me an email....nickscasinopoker@comf5.com....

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2010, 12:50:28 PM »
DCJ001,

 I guess that you and I will continue to disagree. It's unfortunate when comon sense and logic are cast aside in favor of a rule that you don't understand. If the players just played the game instead of "talking trash" and throwing the BS around, the game would be fun and entertaining like it used to be. As far as my credentials, I was teaching dealers when you were an infant. If you would like to continue this discusion without annoying other members, send me an email....nickscasinopoker@comf5.com....

Nick.

I've correctly, in my opinion, answered at least a dozen of your questions or concerns.

Unfortunately, some people don't understand that theres a difference between the way that things are and they way that some people would like them to be.


Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3162
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2010, 01:08:12 PM »
I guess I'm a little slow on this one. Who, in your opinion is the offending player, the one that asked what the other player had in his hand, or the player that answered him? I need to know who you are going to penalize. I would also like to know where in the TDA rules this is covered.

Would you look at Matt's response for me please, because what I see is Matt talking about Buchman's hand not being dead but he should get a penalty.

Why don't we just come out with a rule that players can not speak about their hand (truth or not) and they can't ask opponents about their holding. I will wait for your answers on the questions above.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 02:37:34 PM by Nick C »

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2010, 03:46:46 PM »
I guess I'm a little slow on this one. Who, in your opinion is the offending player, the one that asked what the other player had in his hand, or the player that answered him? I need to know who you are going to penalize. I would also like to know where in the TDA rules this is covered.

Would you look at Matt's response for me please, because what I see is Matt talking about Buchman's hand not being dead but he should get a penalty.

Why don't we just come out with a rule that players can not speak about their hand (truth or not) and they can't ask opponents about their holding. I will wait for your answers on the questions above.

Okay, Nick.

I don't know how someone who has been teaching dealers since I was an infant (are you sure about that?) can still not understand the concepts at hand.

To my knowledge, players can never be penalized for asking any question when a hand is being played by two players. But telling another player what cards you hold is against the rules in a tournament, regardless of the number of players in the hand.

You have made reference to Matt's response to my question, but you have never quoted it in any of your posts. I contacted Matt directly and asked:
Quote
Hey Matt.

I'd like your opinion about the following hand:



Quote
After one player pushed all in, he asked the other player if he held an ace. While considering a call, the other player said that he did hold an ace, possibly/probably attempting to get a reaction from the other player.

TDA rules state:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

One perspective is that the player who disclosed that he held an ace was just making common table chatter. Another viewpoint is that disclosing one's holdings, or showing one's cards when the action is incomplete violates the rules.

What do you think?

Matt's response to me was:

Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.

My original question, and the question to Matt, was about the player who disclosed that he held an ace.

It seems that you've been wrongly focusing on the last line in rule 41:

"The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced."

But the only reason that this line has been included in my posts is because it is part of the rule. The applicable concepts of rule 41, in this scenario, are the parts that relate to disclosing one's holdings.

As someone who has been teaching dealers for twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, or sixty years (based on your guess of my age compared to your age), you should know that you should be looking at all aspects of a situation and use all of your knowledge and experience to make a decision, and not jump to conclusions. As far as your credentials, Nick, you may have been teaching dealers for most of your life. But that doesn't mean that you know what you're doing.

I have never meant to insult you. My goal has been to encourage you to think about the concepts that have been discussed, and to review the TDA rules and to gain an objective understanding of what they mean. I'm not perfect, and I don't know everything. But I'm done in this thread because, at this point, if the concepts and TDA rules are still not understood, there's nothing that I can say to make it happen.

When I posed the original question in this thread, and to Matt directly, I knew what the correct answer was. I was merely interested in seeing the responses that the question would produce.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 05:12:08 PM by DCJ001 »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3162
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2010, 07:48:54 PM »
DCJ001,
 I must say, I am surprised at your response. You claim that you have tried to answer a dozen questions that I had, but I just don't get it. The fact is you didn't answer anything. If you look at my post #12, you will see that I was talking about Buchman's hand. Your next response (post #13), was the one that you asked Matt about. Based on my question, I see Matt refering to Buchman's hand because that was the only hand that I ever mentioned as remaining live even if it were turned over on the table before the other player called. When you give an answer to a question, try to make it more clear so even a simple old man like myself can understand what you are trying to say. You still have not answered anything. What you have accomplished is an image of yourself as a person of little tolerance to a good debate. Perhaps the time that you wasted on this ridiculous subject could have been better spent at an anger management class. Thanks for all of your input. I still don't know what you think about this situation. Maybe you can ask Matt to reply on this. From now on I will only comment when I think that someone is in need of an honest opinion and good advice.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 07:55:30 PM by Nick C »