check on the river everybody showdown?

[Luca P.]

Hey guys, what I'm trying to understand is if everybody check at showdown, do they have to show their hands clockwise, or they have the right to muck their hands?

[Stuart Murray]

under TDA rules any player whom reaches a showdown has the right to elect to muck their cards at showdown

Check muck, bet muck and call muck are all valid forms of play on the river.

Best regards
Stuart

[Luca P.]

wait becauseTDA rules states the following:

POTS/SHOWDOWN
...if there was no bet, the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise

So i assume it means that they have to show...

[Nick C]

TDA rules specify the order of showdown as the player that made the last aggressive action in that (final) betting round must show first. I would prefer that the rule be more specific by stating the player that INITIATES the last aggressive action. In all flop games, the first player to act is always the first player clockwise to the dealer button, (unless all-in). I am not in agreement that players should be allowed to check-muck, or take any such action whenever there are more than two players. Folding, even in-turn, violates poker etiquette. Wait until all players have acted and then if you feel you have no chance at winning (you missed all of your draws) then you can toss your hand away. Remember, players have a right to see a called hand and a checked hand is the same as a called hand.

[chet]

You have to read the whole rule, not just part of it. 

TDA Rule 11 (which was not changed at the last summit) reads:

At the end of last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round (emphasis added) must show first.  If there was no bet, the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise....

There is NOTHING in the TDA rule preventing a player from mucking his/her cards (in turn).  For example, lets assume the first player shows quad Aces and there is NO flush possible.  What sense does it make to require subsequent hands be shown?  If I was in the hand and I saw that a hand that obviously beats mine, I would muck.  It makes no sense (unless one is trying to establish some kind of a table image) to display a loosing hand.  That said, it is within the right of the other players to request to see my hand and it is the dealers responsibility to show that hand.

Hope this helps!

[Luca P.]

Ok chet, maybe I am stupid Lol

At the end of last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round  (emphasis added) must show first.  If there was no bet, the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise....

this is when there was an aggressive action.
But what about no actions at all? The second part of the rule states That if there was no bet then player to the left of the BTN shows first and then the others clockwise...

Is this interpretation correct?

[Nick C]

Chet,

 Your example does not answer the question. What if the first player checks and the next player mucks his hand with another player in the hand. That violates all rules of etiquette and does not offer protection for the other player, or players. A player should never muck his hand when the action is checked to him. They may check, or bet, never fold (unless the action is heads-up). In my opinion, check-muck is one of the most unethical, inconsiderate, improper actions that any poker player could ever make, when other players have yet to act.
 Some casinos use the rule of last aggressive action on that betting round....and some casinos use the last act of aggression (even on a previous round). Example: Pre-flop Player A checks, and Player B checks. Player C bets 100, Players A and B both call.

Using TDA rule #11: After the river all players check. Player A is first to show hand.
Other cardroom ruling: Player C would show hand first, because the last bet made was initiated by Player C back in the first round of betting.

I much prefer the TDA rule, because it can be confusing at times to remember who bet way back in the earlier rounds.

[MikeB]

Hey guys, what I'm trying to understand is if everybody check at showdown, do they have to show their hands clockwise, or they have the right to muck their hands?

Mucking face down at showdown was discussed at length by the membership at the last Summit ( http://www.PokerTDASummit.com ) . A specific rule on it was not drafted, perhaps it should be a topic for a potential formal rule at the next Summit, there's quite a few questions about it. The bottom line from that discussion was that at showdown a player may muck face down at which point the dealer should take the cards and kill them in the muck pile. The dealer should not expose the hand. This is the "check/muck" that Chet and Stuart describe, it's not a muck while the hand is still in play, it's a muck at the showdown after all betting action is concluded. Also, fwiw, if all players to the showdown but one have mucked, then the lone remaining player is considered to be unopposed at showdown and need not show his hand to claim the pot...

For all players who want to participate in the showdown, a player with a powerfully strong hand is by etiquette encouraged to show first (i.e. not slow roll), but if no players table their cards then the formal order of show goes into effect.

[Luca P.]

that's what i was thinking, MikeB.
if the winning hand belong to the last player still in game but we don't know yet, I have to make them show clockwise because we don't know who has the winning hand unless the players turns it.
So in my tourneys if there's a general check at the river, I make them show, all players.

[Stuart Murray]

Some venues I work do have 'must show' at showdown but it is rare.  There is another item you can consider, RROP states that a player with a probable winner is encouraged to show without delay when a showdown is reached.

watch this showdown for some information regarding last aggressive action, probable winner and bet muck, the forward motion is secondary to the actual showdown but good disipline by the players at showdown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fAgRwNfqUw

Stuart

[Nick C]

Stuart,

 That youtube video is just proof that the right call is not always made. That was a ridiculous ruling. Forward motion could easily induce players to fold prematurely. Gestures should be treated like a spoken word when done with obvious intent. That was a terrible call by the floor.
 I'll bet that when the floor got a chance to see what happened, he would have liked to change his call, if he could.

[Stuart Murray]

I show that video often, and like I say right or wrong decision is irrelevant, to the whole reason for watching it, and that is how a TD is to evaluate what has happened and make a balanced decision.  For the record though I do agree with the decision in principle, the reason the WSOP dropped betting lines is because they are more ambiguous than not having one.  I take the same approach and employ chip release as the method for betting and raising and have far less problems than I used to with betting lines and using forward motion.

Regards
Stuart