Author Topic: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?  (Read 7972 times)

bj03sm

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Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« on: July 13, 2010, 08:50:13 PM »
I have talked to multiple people about this and have received different opinions. Situation has to do with the Big Blind in a tournament. Say the blinds are 200-400 and everyone limps around to the big blind. The big blind then pulls his four $100 chips back and throws a $1000 chip out without saying anything. Would this be a call or a raise since he is just throwing out a single oversized chip? Here are different things to consider. Maybe these are my only four $100 chips and i know that I am in the small blind next so I am wating change. Maybe I was away from the table and the dealer put my four $100 chips in the blind, but I made it back to my seat in time to play my hand. I then decide that I want to keep my $100 chips so I pull them back and throw out a $1000 chip. Also in a 1-2 cash game everyone folds around to me and I have my only two $1 chips out there. The server then walks up with my drink so I pull the $1 chips back and throw out a $5. Would that be considered a raise? My opinion is that this is just a call since the person made no verbal declaration when throwing out the single oversized chip. There are different reasons why a person might pull there chips back and throw a oversized chip in without wanting to raise and I think we would be assuming if we automatically call it a raise. My opinion is that without a verbal declaration that this falls under the oversized chip rule Thoughts?

MikeB

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 09:14:51 PM »
Interesting question BJ.  Here's how I would react in this circumstance:
1) The BB doesn't have anything to "call", he's already in for the full BB of $400. The single overchip rule being just a call IMO applies to anyone who who is responding to a bet in progress... the BB isn't responding to a bet in this case.
2) By "switching" from $400 to $1000 the player has increased the amount of $$ in front of him when facing the option to check or raise...
3) The action is completely unnecessary if he's only wanting to call as he already has the $400 "call" in front of him.
4) But there's another issue... if it's checked to you (that is there is no bet you have to call), and you toss out a single chip, it's a bet up to the maximum allowable of the chip (TDA Rule 32, last sentence). That condition is more similar to this situation IMO as the BB was not facing a bet at the time he increased the total in front of him to a single $1000 chip.

Based on the above, I would tend to consider this a raise to a total of $1000, i.e. $600 raise to everyone who has called the BB. Another thing to consider is that the player hasn't declared anything verbally one way or the other so in the absence of a definitive rule the interpretation goes to how the TD sees it at the time and.... "it's the players responsibility to make their actions clear... (TDA Rule)".  So, if they intended a call they didn't make it very clear, if they intended a raise they didn't make that very clear either... it's up to the TD to make the call based on all the facts at hand in this case, and if it's a ruling other than what the player intended, they'll be more careful next time... it's the players responsibility to make his actions clear, not the TD's responsibility to be a mind reader! Lastly, there's also the issue of maintaining discipline in the betting process. I don't like it when a player reaches out and pulls back chips they've previously bet if the action isn't 100% clear as to why they're doing it. By ruling this a raise you serve notice that you take casual "chip shuffling" seriously... Thanks for the very interesting question.  (PS: Welcome aboard, glad to see you navigated the registration system).
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 02:37:27 AM by MikeB »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 03:04:24 AM »
I would rule it a raise, the $400 is already part of a total pot, which has been established in previous threads, so the act of removing $400 and tossing a $1000 in can be nothing other than a raise of $600 more, I don't see how we can argue a call in this case.

Think of it like this the dealer moves round the table and players call the BB, the dealer then arrives at the BB seat and asks "Any more" or "Any raise" to which your player picks up the 400 and puts in 1000 instead. Has to be a raise for me as it is about the only time a player could make a siilent raise as the player can only fold, check or raise - they cannot call.

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Stuart
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Nick C

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 06:47:17 AM »
Stuart is right on. I think it can only be a raise.

pineforest

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2010, 09:16:25 AM »
I would also rule it a raise.  Some TD's might not, and that is ok too.

It is they players responsibility to make their action clear.  Players need to understand that if they leave thier action open to interpretation that they may not get what they want.

Oddvark

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2010, 11:44:04 PM »
But if the SB makes the same physical actions -- i.e., pulls back their posted blind chips and silently tosses out a single oversized chip -- it's just a call, right?

Which leads to this hypothetical scenario:  Blinds at 200/400.  Action is folded to the SB, who pulls back his 200 SB chips and silently throws out a 1000 chip.  No one says anything.  BB then mimics the SB's action, by pulling back his 400 BB chips and silently throws out a 1000 chip.

By the above-stated rules, it should be ruled that SB just called 400, BB raised to 1000, and action would be back on SB who could fold (and get 600 back), call the 1000, or re-raise.  Is that correct?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2010, 02:15:38 AM »
By the above-stated rules, it should be ruled that SB just called 400, BB raised to 1000, and action would be back on SB who could fold (and get 600 back), call the 1000, or re-raise.  Is that correct?
I'd say yes, SB would be a call and BB a raise, but as pine has already correctly said, it could go either way and is at the mercy of the Tournament Director.

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Stuart
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MikeB

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 10:11:50 AM »
But if the SB makes the same physical actions -- i.e., pulls back their posted blind chips and silently tosses out a single oversized chip -- it's just a call, right?
Yes, because the SB is facing a bet (200), and when facing a bet he elects to toss out a single overchip... a single overchip when facing a bet is a call of the bet. FWIW, in this same scenario had he tossed out two 500's silently, it would have been a raise.

Which leads to this hypothetical scenario:  Blinds at 200/400.  Action is folded to the SB, who pulls back his 200 SB chips and silently throws out a 1000 chip.  No one says anything.  BB then mimics the SB's action, by pulling back his 400 BB chips and silently throws out a 1000 chip.

By the above-stated rules, it should be ruled that SB just called 400, BB raised to 1000, and action would be back on SB who could fold (and get 600 back), call the 1000, or re-raise.  Is that correct?
Absolutely... the SB was facing a bet when he tossed out the overchip (thus it's a call), the BB was not facing a bet when he did so (thus it's an initiation of action i.e. raise in this case up to the maximum allowable for the chip).

diz475

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Re: Call or Raise? Oversized chip?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 11:54:41 AM »
I know this is an old topic but in must need more discussion because Matt Savage was quoted in a magazine and on twitter that he thinks itís an unclear bet and he would say itís a call. I think Matt is wrong here, the big blind has noting to call it has to be a raise