Author Topic: Table betting line.  (Read 5906 times)

MrScott

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Table betting line.
« on: November 25, 2009, 11:24:42 AM »
  The casino I work at recently built a new 13 table poker room.  We also decided that the new table layouts were going to have a betting line.  The problem we are having is that some supervisors are ruling one way on one shift, while others say something else on another.
  One example that we had last night...In a cash game, player A bets $20 on the flop, Player B grabs aprox.$60 in red chips, crosses the betting line with them and drops the $20.  The supervisor that was called to the table ruled that player B must raise to $60 since the chips crossed the "commitment line" and it was enough to constitue a complete raise.
This is the kind of situations we are coming accross.
  Does the TDA have a standardized guideline on this issue that I can use to get all of us on the same page.

chet

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2009, 02:06:00 PM »
To date, no one has proposed a rule regarding the "betting line" and making it mandatory.  It would be very hard to do in that there are probably as many card rooms using the "betting line" layout as there are who do not.  More to the point, the TDA "rules" only apply to Tournaments, not to cash games.  My suggestion is that you need to talk to your cardroom manager and make sure that the "betting line" rule is clearly documented in your House Rules.  Then the application of that rule is a management problem between the offending supervisors and the room manager.

BTW:  The card room closest to my also has betting line layouts.  To get even more confusing, they DO NOT use the betting line in cash games, ONLY in tournaments.

Even Robert's Rules of Poker has left the implementation of the "Betting Line" up to the individual card room.  The only mention of it in version 10 (version 11 is the latest) is in the section on Poker Etiquette, under "Chip Placement" where he says, "Players should place chips within the dealers reach or across the betting line printed on some poker tables."

Hope this helps!

MikeB

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 02:45:17 PM »
 The casino I work at recently built a new 13 table poker room.  We also decided that the new table layouts were going to have a betting line.  The problem we are having is that some supervisors are ruling one way on one shift, while others say something else on another.
  One example that we had last night...In a cash game, player A bets $20 on the flop, Player B grabs aprox.$60 in red chips, crosses the betting line with them and drops the $20.  The supervisor that was called to the table ruled that player B must raise to $60 since the chips crossed the "commitment line" and it was enough to constitue a complete raise.
This is the kind of situations we are coming accross.
  Does the TDA have a standardized guideline on this issue that I can use to get all of us on the same page.

Mr. Scott:

You have TWO issues there: 1) The betting line AND 2) Whether you use A) "forward motion" i.e. chips just have to "break the plane of the betting line" to be in play OR B) You use "chip release" as your standard, i.e. only chips actually released from a players hand count as action....

If you wask for a "general guideline" I would say that most often if there is a betting line that forward motion rule is in effect and that most often when there is no betting line chip release is in effect... but you could have ANY combination of the two. Personally I would say you find more chip release venues in the USA just because it's less ambiguous:  the chips are either released or they are not. If you have a line and forward motion then you have to parse whether or not a hand has broken the forward motion plane and if so how many chips were involved....the kind of problem you speak of...

Perhaps one day it will be standardized worldwide.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 02:47:28 PM by MikeB »

Georg

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 02:46:59 PM »
The betting line  ::)

We used it, with the rule that everything over line was in the pot (even if still in the hand as in your example). Thankfully we got rid of it a few years ago, and now there is hardly ever an argument if someone bet or only counted chips in front of him. But as chet said, there are probably as many casinos with betting line as there are without. Just make one consistent rule and you should be fine.

Georg

D.C.

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 12:08:20 PM »
In the Brazilian Series we've got rid of the betting line as it gets really confusing in some situations, specially on later stages of the tournament when chipstacks are huge and they end up crossing the line.

I've adopted the chip release standard as well as the "card line" to determine bets and call string bets.
If you release the chips, that will constitute a bet.

If you retract your hands behind the 'front-most' end of your cards the moviment has ended and subsequent bets are considered string bets.
Devanir "D.C." Campos
Brazilian Series of Poker Tournament Director

Georg

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 03:54:52 PM »
This brings us to an interesting topic: String bets!

I always tell my dealers that (and I also did it this way when I was a dealer) all chips have to be released in one motion. If you have to start to think about if it was a string bet or not, then it probably was a string bet. The players are responsible to declare their actions if they make a bet that is not without any doubt a bet, than it is their fault if it's called a string bet. Every player has the option to announce his bet before he puts chips in. If they don't use this option then everything going wrong could have been avoided from their side. So whenever I am called to a table because a player argues that his bet was called a string bet by the dealer. I usually don't even care what hand motion exactly happened and which chip fell when and where. I just support the dealer and tell people to announce their bets to avoid such mistakes in the future.

What do you think?

Georg

chet

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 09:59:05 PM »
Georg:  In response to your post about "String Bets" (which I think should be a separate topic from "Betting Line"), the TDA has a series of rules regarding "Play, Bets & Raises".  These are rules 29 through 36.  IMO, the situation you describe is best covered by rule #30 which says, "In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by (1) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring "raise" prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion.  It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear." 

I agree with your interpretation.  In the absence of a verbal declaration, prior to chips going into the pot, I would support the dealer as well.  Players can always ask for "Time", if they need it to figure out what they want to do or how much to raise or they can use option (3), announce the 'raise', place the chips needed to call into the pot and then, in one additional motion (which might take a few additional seconds), place the full raise amount into the pot. 

Hope this helps!

elim12345

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 11:05:38 AM »
Six months ago we implemented the rule, in Live games, that chips carried over the Betting Line are considered in the pot (no release necessary).  This has proven problematic and has led to a number of complaints.  Consistent enforcement is the biggest problem.  I am lobbying to go back to our old rule that chips must be released to be considered in the pot.  I am sure we will go back to the old release rule, it is just a matter of time and a few hundred more complaints.  The gain for the "chips over the line rule" is minimal and the pain is on going.

MikeB

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 10:01:47 PM »
Six months ago we implemented the rule, in Live games, that chips carried over the Betting Line are considered in the pot (no release necessary).  This has proven problematic and has led to a number of complaints.  Consistent enforcement is the biggest problem.  I am lobbying to go back to our old rule that chips must be released to be considered in the pot.  I am sure we will go back to the old release rule, it is just a matter of time and a few hundred more complaints.  The gain for the "chips over the line rule" is minimal and the pain is on going.

Elim: Thanks for the feedback on your experience with betting lines and forward motion. It helps others when they are considering which standard they want to use.

DCJ001

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 04:19:01 PM »
Bellagio Tournament Director Jack McClelland discusses some of the rules of using a betting line on a poker table and how it helps to simplify and clarify how bets are made in poker tournaments and cash games in this episode of ‘Ask Jack.’

http://www.cardplayer.com/cptv/channels/13-other-poker-videos/poker-videos/3922-ask-jack-betting-lines

Nick C

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Re: Table betting line.
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010, 09:42:23 PM »
Mr Scott,

 I just watched Jack McClelland and I was surprised at his response. He actually moved across the betting line with a stack of chips and said it was okay to cut the amount that he wanted to wager and return the remaining chips that were still in his hand, back to his stack. Sometimes I think we go out of our way to complicate matters that we initially are trying to fix. A betting line should be better than not having one. I think that all we need to do is be sure that our patrons understand what it means. I don't think any player should be allowed to move forward with more chips than they intend to wager, with or without a betting line. It is very easy for dealers to announce to the table that any forward motion beyond the betting line will be action. The betting line was a great addition when I used them on our new tables when we opened our new poker room in 2003. The first time that the layouts were changed (about one year later) the betting line (we used to call it a racing stripe) was no longer used and we missed it. I think some of the decisions that are made are too harsh. Especially in a new room or a room that is using the betting line for the first time. In a recent trip to Las Vegas, I was reminded that my bets were not forward enough, ( I hadn't crossed the line). The dealer told me nicely that I needed to push my wager in a little more....problem solved. I find it very nonproductive in every way, to force a player to comply with a ruling that will cost him $40 dollars more than he wanted to call. A good way to send a player off to another poker room.
Nick C