Author Topic: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting  (Read 190 times)

Smsguy927

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Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« on: January 22, 2019, 07:48:07 PM »
Preflop, blinds 200/400, 4 handed. Button on player B. Player A calls 400. B raises to 1800. C folds, D is all in for 3000. If player A asks if D's raise is a dead raise, can an answer be given? What if player A asks whether B can re-raise? 

BillM16

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Re: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2019, 08:20:16 PM »
Welcome to the TDA forum Smsguy927!

It is common for players to ask a dealer or floor person for clarification on the amount bet or raised.

Player B wagered 1800 while facing a 400 bet.  That is a raise of 1400.  Player D is facing 1800 and only has 3000 for his all-in bet.  So, his raise was 1200 and is therefore NOT a full raise if it gets back to player B. 

If player A asks for clarification, it is perfectly fine for the dealer or floor person to say that Player D's all-in bet was not a full raise.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:21:55 PM by BillM16 »

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2019, 01:53:11 AM »
I am not comfortable with your answer Bill.

By giving the information to the requesting player, the dealer may influence how the player will play the hand.
Players are supposed to know the rules they are most of the time too lazy to do the maths.

Moreover, if the dealer stated actions, by saying All-in (and not Raise All-in), it clearly indicates that the action is not a raise.


Quote
Sidestory:

I had this situation on a PL Omaha cashgame :

Blinds 1/2
Double Straddle (10) on

4 players call 10

Double Straddle raises 55
Player after go all-in 100
Call
Call

Action left on 2 players
1st ask "Can the Double Straddle re-raise ?"

At this time, there is 355Ä in the pot and you definitely know that there will be more.
Trust me, I didn't blink and said I know but can't answer the question. (and yes I did say raise on the 100 bet)

Floorman came and said to the requesting player "You should know the rules"

Dave Miller

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Re: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 06:15:15 AM »
While I think it would be great if the players knew the rules, often that's impractical or even impossible.

Despite the TDA's efforts, not all poker rooms follow the same set of rules.

Some players play at multiple poker rooms. Remembering all the differences would be a challenge.

Even if all rooms followed the TDA rules, those change and it may be difficult for the average player to keep up.

Some poker rooms have different rules for cash games vs tournaments.

I once asked a floorman if they were following Robert's Rules and/or TDA rules and was told that they have their own in-house set of rules. When I asked if I could read them, I was told that they are not available for player review. WTF?

Once at another room, there was a question about a short all-in raise. The dealer asked the floor, even specifying that he heard that the management was considering changing the rule. The floor said that the rule hadn't been changed yet. Later that day, the identical situation arose and the floor ruled differently. I objected and asked when the rule got changed. The response was that that rule never changed. Then I told what happened that morning.

Bottom line, if floorpeople can't keep the rules straight, what chance does a player have? If a player asks a question about the rules, it must be answered.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 06:16:48 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 07:00:43 AM »
I am not comfortable with your answer Bill.

By giving the information to the requesting player, the dealer may influence how the player will play the hand.
Players are supposed to know the rules they are most of the time too lazy to do the maths.

Moreover, if the dealer stated actions, by saying All-in (and not Raise All-in), it clearly indicates that the action is not a raise.

Boris, please see Rule #53:

53:  Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount, the caller has accepted the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.


Clearly, it is acceptable for a dealer to provide the information.  Of course, it's the player's responsibility to ensure that the information received was indeed correct.  If incorrect, Rule #1 may be involved in a fair ruling. The important point here is that the player is not only entitled but is responsible for determining the correct amount and requesting that information from a dealer is allowed.  If a dealer refuses to clarify whether or not the bet was a full raise, the player ought to call the floor before making a decision.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 07:13:38 AM by BillM16 »

BROOKS

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Re: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 02:37:01 AM »
I teach dealers to not answer that question with a yes or no

"if I call, can he raise?"

Our answer is, "the rule is, any player facing a full raise, may re-raise"

We're not keeping the rules from them, but we're not going to give them answers that can influence a decision.
If he doesn't want to, or can't do the math to figure that out, that's his problem.

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 08:05:29 AM »
Boris, please see Rule #53:

53:  Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the callerís responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponentís bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount, the caller has accepted the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TDís discretion.


Clearly, it is acceptable for a dealer to provide the information.  Of course, it's the player's responsibility to ensure that the information received was indeed correct.  If incorrect, Rule #1 may be involved in a fair ruling. The important point here is that the player is not only entitled but is responsible for determining the correct amount and requesting that information from a dealer is allowed.  If a dealer refuses to clarify whether or not the bet was a full raise, the player ought to call the floor before making a decision.

My point is this situation is that Player A is facing action with all options available and seeking information for other players options. He is indirectly asking for advice to know how many chips the street could cost to him. This is why the dealer should not respond with a straight answer.

Rule 1 should be only for extreme cases which conflict several rules and/or the results of the interpretation of multiple rules may differ. Plus, it has nothing to do with dealers behaviour. Dealers should never give any information of this kind on their own since they could lose their neutrality. It is way better to let the floor make the decision to give the information or not.

BillM16

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Re: Player asking about a dead raise / re-opening the betting
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 08:22:47 AM »
My point is this situation is that Player A is facing action with all options available and seeking information for other players options. He is indirectly asking for advice to know how many chips the street could cost to him. This is why the dealer should not respond with a straight answer.

If player A asks if D's raise is a dead raise, can an answer be given? What if player A asks whether B can re-raise?

Boris,

I understood your OP as saying that player A was asking whether D's bet was enough to allow B to raise again. Assuming that is correct, then my answer stands.  Player A can ask that question and the dealer can provide an answer.  No where in your OP do I see where player A was asking for advice.
 


Dictionary:
ad∑vice
/ədˈvīs/
noun
1.  guidance or recommendations offered with regard to prudent future action.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 08:29:50 AM by BillM16 »