Author Topic: Question about blinds going up  (Read 157 times)

ShaneP15

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Question about blinds going up
« on: January 06, 2019, 07:12:23 PM »
The floor announced blinds up next hand. Next hand later, everyone forgot. Everyone folded to the dealer button. The dealer button calls and then a player said blinds went up. So does the blinds goes up this hand or is it kept the old blinds?

BillM16

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2019, 07:59:24 PM »
Good evening Shane,

In the Dealer Rules section of the 2017 TDA Rules you will find:

36: Substantial Action (SA)
Substantial Action is either A) any 2 actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds) or B) any combination of 3 actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, fold).


In your posted scenario, SA has occurred. Therefore, the hand should proceed with the blinds that are already posted.  If SA had not occurred, correcting the blinds would be appropriate provide that the dealer had not started the next hand before the announcement. See rule #23.

23: New Hand & New Limits
A new level will not be announced until the clock reaches zero. The new level applies to the next hand. A hand begins on the first riffle, push of the shuffler button, or on the dealer push.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:03:55 PM by BillM16 »

ShaneP15

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2019, 11:01:57 PM »
It says, Posted blinds do not count towards SA. And then it says its talking about misdeal situation.

BROOKS

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 03:45:48 AM »
No, the act of posting blinds does not count towards substantial action, but all those players folding around to the button is substantial action. Therefore the hand continues as is, with the blinds that are posted.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:47:25 AM by BROOKS »

BillM16

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 06:15:24 AM »
Shane, in the OP you said that everyone folded to the button who then called before the error was noted.  So, according to #36A it is SA as one player - the button - put chips in the pot and another (everyone else) had folded.

You will find that the TDA Rules does not (cannot) address every possible situation that can occur at the table.  It provides rules and guidelines for the tournament directors (and players) that can be applied in making decisions that are fair and in the best interest of the game.  The Substantial Action rule is often used to determine when a hand must proceed even though an abnormality has occurred.  Several of he TDA Rules include SA as an important consideration in ruling correctly.

Dave Miller

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 06:25:04 AM »
I disagree.

Since the blinds were never correctly posted, the players who folded were not substantial action, but out of turn action.

As such, the action should be backed up to the blind players. Once the correct blinds are posted, the OOT folds stand. The player who called the incorrect blind should have the option of folding or calling the correct blind amount - but not raising.

Note that Rule 36, Substantial Action, was put in place to help determine when it's too late to call a misdeal. Also note that the last line of that rule, that posting isn't SA, was added to stop players from claiming the blinds were posted prior to the announced new blinds - when the first riffle was after the announcement.
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MikeB

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 10:33:31 AM »
Great topic for clarification at the 2019 Summit. Rule 43-A should also be considered:

43: Incorrect Bets, Underbets & Underraises

A: In limit and no-limit, opening or raising less than the minimum legal amount is corrected anywhere on the current street (if on the river any time before showdown starts). Ex: NLHE 100-200, post-flop A opens for 600 and B raises to 1000 (a 200 underraise). C and D call, E folds then the error is noticed. Increase the bet to 1200 total for all bettors any time before the turn is dealt. After the turn the error stands. For undercalls, see Rule 42.


This rule was adopted 2017. During discussion the options considered for locking in the underbet were substantial action and the end of the current betting round (or street). The current street held for Rule A (limit and no limit) but Rule B (for pot limit) was a mixture of SA and current street. Like all TDA Rules, it will be re-visited in 2019.

ShaneP15

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2019, 03:05:51 AM »
A bunch of floormans told me that it goes up this hand. Only 1 floorman told me to keep the old blind. So now things aren't making sense here.

Nick C

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2019, 07:36:57 AM »
I disagree.

Since the blinds were never correctly posted, the players who folded were not substantial action, but out of turn action.
Dave, I don't understand your logic, here.

BillM16

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Re: Question about blinds going up
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2019, 10:34:06 AM »
    Great topic for clarification at the 2019 Summit. Rule 43-A should also be considered:

    43: Incorrect Bets, Underbets & Underraises

    A: In limit and no-limit, opening or raising less than the minimum legal amount is corrected anywhere on the current street (if on the river any time before showdown starts). Ex: NLHE 100-200, post-flop A opens for 600 and B raises to 1000 (a 200 underraise). C and D call, E folds then the error is noticed. Increase the bet to 1200 total for all bettors any time before the turn is dealt. After the turn the error stands. For undercalls, see Rule 42.


    This rule was adopted 2017. During discussion the options considered for locking in the underbet were substantial action and the end of the current betting round (or street). The current street held for Rule A (limit and no limit) but Rule B (for pot limit) was a mixture of SA and current street. Like all TDA Rules, it will be re-visited in 2019.

    I see several issues that are perhaps worth discussion in the 2019 summit in this regard:
    • #23: New Hand & New Limits:
    Tells us when the a new level and the next hand begins.  But, it doesn't tell us what happens if the blinds are posted incorrectly and SA occurs before the error is noted.
    • #35: Misdeals:
    Says a misdeal cannot be declared once SA occurs.  However, incorrectly posted blinds are not specifically included as misdeals (and would not typically require a re-deal to correct).
    • #36: Substantial Action (SA):
    Says that posted blinds do not count towards SA, but doesn't say how or if incorrectly posted blinds affect SA or how SA affects incorrectly posted blinds.
    • #43A: Incorrect Bets, Underbets & Underraises
    Says that incorrectly opening or raising less than the minimum legal amount is corrected anywhere on the current street.  It goes on to give and example where correction should occur even after SA.  However, it doesn't say that calling an incorrectly posted BB ought to be corrected.

    My current thinking is that #43 might be altered along these lines:

    Suggested change for TDA 2019 - #43: Incorrect Calls, Bets and Raises
    A: In limit and no-limit, calling, betting, or raising less than the minimum legal amount is corrected anywhere on the current street, unless showdown has started, even though substantial action may have occurred.


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    « Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 10:42:02 AM by BillM16 »

    Nick C

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    Re: Question about blinds going up
    « Reply #10 on: January 13, 2019, 03:34:04 PM »
    I really believe we are taking this too far. On the occasion of SA I think it would be much easier to play out the hand as started. I guess we could correct it to the higher correct limit on the next street but to back up all betting to the corrected amount is sometimes too difficult. There are situations where new side pots could be created because of some players possibly not having enough to make the proper call, and besides, how many players base their call on the amount of the bet they are facing? I might not want to call a 2000 BB, but 1000 was acceptable. Once SA has occurred I would prefer not changing the lesser amount. Dealers need to pay more attention to blind increases in tournaments.

    Dave Miller

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    Re: Question about blinds going up
    « Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 10:16:20 AM »
    ... I guess we could correct it to the higher correct limit on the next street but to back up all betting to the corrected amount is sometimes too difficult.
    Difficult? I suppose, but would prefer to try.

    On the other hand, Id much rather play it out at the wrong blinds than to fix it on the next street. THAT seems like the worst option.
    Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
    But how much does it cost to knock on wood?