Author Topic: 3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards  (Read 132 times)

Boris Mauboussin

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3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards
« on: November 24, 2018, 06:52:05 AM »
Hello folks,

I have a good one.

NLHE Tournament
Blinds 1K/2K

Back from break
BTN is seat 1
Seat 2 is All-in with less than the big blind (200  actually) but he is not at the table.
Action starts without him
Seat 8 goes All-in
Seat 1 call
Before showdown seat 2 player arrive at the table and says "Where are my cards"
Dealer realize he didn't dealt seat 2 in.
This is confirmed by counting the cards in the muck.

Floor is called.

BillM16

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Re: 3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2018, 07:57:20 AM »
Good morning Boris,

There are two 2017 TDA RULES that govern the outcome.

TDA RULE #35 - Misdeals

A: Misdeals include but are not necessarily limited to: 1) 2 or more boxed cards on the initial deal; 2) first card dealt to the wrong seat; 3) cards dealt to a seat not entitled to a hand; 4) a seat entitled to a hand is dealt out; 5) In stud, if any player’s first 2 downcards are exposed by dealer error; 6) In flop games, if 1 of the first 2 cards dealt off the deck or any other 2 downcards are exposed by dealer error. House standards apply for draw games (ex: lowball).

B: Players may be dealt 2 consecutive cards on the button (see also Rule 37).

C: In a misdeal, the re-deal is an exact re-play: the button does not move, no new players are seated, and limits stay the same. Cards are dealt to players on penalty or not at their seats for the original deal (Rule 30), then their hands are killed. The original deal and re-deal count as one hand for a player on penalty, not two.

D: Once substantial action occurs a misdeal cannot be declared; the hand must proceed (See Rule 36).

TDA RULE #36: Substantial Action (SA)

Substantial Action is either A) any 2 actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds) or B) any combination of 3 actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, fold). Posted blinds do not count towards SA. See Rules 35-D & 44-B.

So, seat 2 was entitled to a hand and was dealt out which would be considered a misdeal by Rule #35A .  However, as it was not declared before Substantial Action had occurred, according to Rules #35D and #36A the misdeal cannot be declared and the hand must proceed.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 08:00:13 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: 3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2018, 09:49:24 AM »
So what about seat 2? Does he lose his big blind?

After much consideration, Iím thinking, yeah. He loses his big blind.

If he was seated, he could have stopped the deal before it was finished. Before there was any action.

Had he been dealt in, he wasnít at his seat, so his hand gets mucked.

The fact that he wasnít dealt in is irrelevant. Also, counting the muck doesnít prove that HE wasnít dealt in, just that SOMEONE wasnít dealt in.

The fact that posting the big blind meant he was all in and is therefore knocked out is unfortunate, but irrelevant.

Bottom line, it is the playerís responsibility to protect his hand. He failed to do that when he didnít return from the break before the deal began.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: 3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2018, 01:46:05 PM »
So what about seat 2? Does he lose his big blind?

I agree Dave, seat 2 loses the 200.

TDA RULE #30: At Your Seat and Live Hands
To have a live hand, players must be at their seats when the last card is dealt to all players on the initial deal. Players not then at their seats may not look at their cards which are killed immediately. Their posted blinds and antes forfeit to the pot and an absent player dealt the stud bring-in card posts the bring-in. Players must be at their seats to call for a clock (Rule 29). “At your seat” means in reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to encourage players to be out of their seats while in a hand.


But, what if the misdeal had been discovered before substantial action had occurred?  In that case, Rule #35C would be used.  During the re-deal, seat 2 would be dealt in, but his hand would be killed.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 01:53:47 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: 3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 06:04:39 PM »
Wow...you guys are tough! If the mistake is caught before action, why not just redeal?

Dave Miller

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Re: 3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2018, 08:12:41 AM »
Really Nick? Reread the original post.

The misdeal was discovered at the showdown.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: 3 ways All-in situation / 1 Player does not cards
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2018, 07:51:38 PM »
Yeah, Dave...I guess that is a bit late! :-[