POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General
all-in player showdown/global misunderstanding
The Hitman:
Hi everyone,
I have a tricky one for you, and I had to go out of the grid to rule it (still not sure I did the right thing, but looked obvious to me).
Here is the situation:
Blinds 1200/2400, everybody folds to the SB who announces "call" in order to call the 2400, but (quite important) doesn't put the chips straight away, action is now on the big bling who moves all-in, action repeated by the dealer. The dealer is coming back to SB and sees the players is putting chips (the chips he didn't put previously to call the BB) and announces "call, showdown please!", BB opens his cards as requested and everybody realises that SB actually didn't act....
What would you do in that case?
Thanks for the feed back gentlemen!
MikeB:
Hey Hit:
Thanks for the great case. IMO it's pretty clear per 2017 TDA Rule 40:
A: Bets are by verbal declaration and/or pushing out chips. If a player does both, whichever is first defines the bet. If simultaneous, a clear and reasonable verbal declaration takes precedence, otherwise the chips play.
... the BB is all-in and the SB has called. As the SB correctly requests per TDA Rule 16: turn all hole cards up for the showdown then run out the board.
Would have liked to see an All-In button used here but otherwise looks clear-cut.
BillM16:
--- Quote from: The Hitman on July 20, 2018, 07:06:57 AM ---Hi everyone,
I have a tricky one for you, and I had to go out of the grid to rule it (still not sure I did the right thing, but looked obvious to me).
Here is the situation:
Blinds 1200/2400, everybody folds to the SB who announces "call" in order to call the 2400, but (quite important) doesn't put the chips straight away, action is now on the big bling who moves all-in, action repeated by the dealer. The dealer is coming back to SB and sees the players is putting chips (the chips he didn't put previously to call the BB) and announces "call, showdown please!", BB opens his cards as requested and everybody realises that SB actually didn't act....
What would you do in that case?
Thanks for the feed back gentlemen!
--- End quote ---
I see this a bit differently ... depending on some clarification.
1) The SB verbally announced call while facing the BB bet of 2400. But did not put chips into the pot.
2) The BB announced All-In.
3) The dealer repeated the All-In bet.
4) The SB puts in the chips necessary to complete the call of 2400. He says nothing at that time.
5) The dealer mistakenly announced "call, showdown please."
6) The BB reveals his hand.
7) The SB and everybody else realizes that the All-In wasn't called.
As worded, it sounds to me like SB did not call the All-In raise. He merely completed his prior call. The SB has rightful obligation to complete the initial call by putting in the necessary 2400 in chips. The dealer made a mistake and should have clarified the action. Unfortunately, the dealer and the BB acted to quickly and failed to realize that the SB did not act on the raise. I'd rule that the SB can either call or fold.
Regards,
B~
Dave Miller:
Dealers sometimes make mistakes.
It is the BB’s responsibility to not act until the SB finished his action of putting in chips. When the BB jumped the gun, the BB must suffer the consequences of following the direction of a dealer who made a mistake when trying to follow the action.
Also, Rule 65:
“Players must protect their hands at all times...”
MikeB:
--- Quote from: BillM16 on July 20, 2018, 12:55:47 PM ---4) The SB puts in the chips necessary to complete the call of 2400. He says nothing at that time.
5) The dealer mistakenly announced "call, showdown please."
--- End quote ---
Ahhh... that sounds right, I thought the SB had said "call, showdown please" but re-reading the post looks like the dealer said it. In that case the SB has made no action towards calling the all-in.
AND, if that's the case then the first decision for me is Rule 1 on whether to hold the BB to an all-in bet as he exposed his cards in good faith following the dealer's order. The BB has some culpability under responsibility to follow the action but IMO the dealer declaration far eclipses the BB's responsibility and I'd tend to favor giving the BB the option to retract the all-in or go ahead and make the bet with his cards exposed.
There's no direct TDA Rule addressing this but it vaguely falls into the Koroknai vs. Baumann category where the bulk of the error is caused by the house and a Rule 1 approach is needed. Thanks again for presenting the case!
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