Author Topic: Folding OOT  (Read 432 times)

BillM16

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Folding OOT
« on: June 11, 2018, 01:15:13 PM »
This happened at a local poker club yesterday.

NLHE:  It's pre-flop and the UTG+1 player, sitting in seat 6, quickly tosses both cards facedown into the center of the table toward the dealer.  The dealer says: "Wait, it's seat 5's turn."  UTG, in seat 5, makes a min-raise.  The dealer then says to UTG+1: "The action has changed. So, you can have your hand back and you can either call, raise, or fold."

What do you say?

Regards,
B~ 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 01:19:01 PM by BillM16 »

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 01:56:13 PM »
Hello Bill,

According to me, an OOT fold should always bind (and get 1 hand penalty but this is another story)
I did not dig into the archives but I think this OOT rule might have been made to allow OOT calling players retrieve their money when facing an unexpected raise from the skipped player.

Also, this rule is highly exploitable by a player holding a big hand in specific situations.

---

After getting a read, Rule 43 44 says OOT fold is binding. (Thank you Greg)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 08:55:59 AM by Boris Mauboussin »

GreggPath

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 03:47:33 PM »
After getting a read, Rule 43 says OOT fold is binding.

Actually I think it's Rule 44, but I agree. OOT fold is binding.

Uniden32

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2018, 09:17:44 AM »
I can't imagine a scenario where I'm allowing a player to unfold.
Ralph Brandt
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Dave Miller

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 10:30:09 AM »
I’ve seen OOT folders try to unfold, but only so that their action doesn’t cause additional OOT action.

I point to the action player and announce “action is over here.” Then, while mucking the OOT folder’s cards, tell him “it’s OK, everybody knows you’re folding. Just wait your turn in the future.”
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 02:16:11 PM »
First of all...in the original post, the under the gun+1 player intentionally mucked OOT. He should have received a warning and should not have been given his cards back. That's it...no option because of action changing. His hand is dead!

TDA #40 Clearly states that out of turn folds are binding!


 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:25:55 PM by Nick C »

GreggPath

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2018, 05:03:23 AM »
TDA #40 Clearly states that out of turn folds are binding!

I think you mean #44, but otherwise I concur.

Nick C

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2018, 08:32:17 PM »
Gregg, Yes you are correct it is TDA #40...thanks. haha...I meant #44
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 09:11:17 AM by Nick C »

BillM16

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2018, 07:24:06 PM »
OK, so we all agree that the relevant TDA Rule is: 

An OOT fold is binding.

That sentence is clearly stated in 2015 TDA Rule #40 and 2017 TDA Rule #44.

How is it possible that the dealer or floor could be confused about this TDA rule?  Here is what I learned while discussing this with them.  Put simply, their interpretation and position is that "the OOT fold is binding ONLY if the corrected action doesn't change."

Here is 2017 TDA Rule #44, Part A:

44:  Action Out of Turn (OOT)
A: Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order. The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change.  A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action. If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold. An OOT fold is binding.


My question to you is this:  Is there a way to make this rule more clear to avoid this confusion? For example, would this be better?

PROPOSED 44:  Action Out of Turn (OOT)
A: An OOT action is subject to penalty and may be binding.  When OOT action occurs, play will be backed up to the first player skipped and resume in the correct order.  An OOT fold is always binding.  An OOT check, call, bet or raise is binding if the corrected action to the OOT player has not changed.  A check, call or fold by a correct player does not change action. When action changes, an OOT bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who may then call, raise, or fold.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 08:02:57 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2018, 02:27:41 PM »
Much better. There was always too much confusion about action changing, in my opinion. Did it mean if the corrected action was different from the OOT or what???

If I may, I'd like to add a suggestion or two. A: An OOT action is subject to penalty and may be binding.  When OOT action occurs, play will be backed up to the first player skipped (proper bettor) and resume in the correct order.  An OOT fold is always binding.  An OOT check, call, bet or raise is binding if the corrected action to the OOT player has not changed. STOP Does this mean that the action changed from what the OOT bet? example: OOT bets 100, the action is backed up to the proper bettor and he or she bets 100, would the OOT be obligated to keep his 100 in the pot? A check, call or fold by a correct player does not change action. When action changes, an OOT bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who may then call, raise, or fold.

 I think Bills suggested change is a step in the right direction but as usual, I've always had a tough time understanding this rule as written.

BillM16

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2018, 03:41:46 PM »
Much better. There was always too much confusion about action changing, in my opinion. Did it mean if the corrected action was different from the OOT or what???

If I may, I'd like to add a suggestion or two. A: An OOT action is subject to penalty and may be binding.  When OOT action occurs, play will be backed up to the first player skipped (proper bettor) and resume in the correct order.  An OOT fold is always binding.  An OOT check, call, bet or raise is binding if the corrected action to the OOT player has not changed. STOP Does this mean that the action changed from what the OOT bet? example: OOT bets 100, the action is backed up to the proper bettor and he or she bets 100, would the OOT be obligated to keep his 100 in the pot? A check, call or fold by a correct player does not change action. When action changes, an OOT bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who may then call, raise, or fold.

 I think Bills suggested change is a step in the right direction but as usual, I've always had a tough time understanding this rule as written.

Your point is valid and it has been discussed during the TDA Summits.  In your example, action has changed as the skipped player has made a bet.  It doesn't matter that the corrected bet made was equal to the OOT bet amount.  Given action has changed, the OOT player has all options ... according to the rule.  However, some TD's have expressed different opinions and some would require the OOT player to make the call.  Of course, there are many variations ... and in some cases the TD might require the OOT player to make a minimum raise under some circumstances.

Here is another version ...


PROPOSED 44:  Action Out of Turn (OOT)
A: An OOT action is subject to penalty and may be binding.  When OOT action occurs, play will be backed up to the first player skipped and will resume in the correct order.  An OOT fold is always binding.  An OOT check, call, bet or raise is binding if the corrected action by skipped players does not include either a bet or raise.  A check, call or fold by a correct player does not change action to the OOT player.  When corrected action has changed, an OOT bet or raise should be returned to the OOT player who may then call, raise, or fold.  Under some circumstances, the TD may require the OOT player to make either a call or minimum raise.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 03:50:12 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2018, 05:36:02 PM »
I like your Proposed #44 Action OOT best. I finally understand what the rule was trying to say.

Thank you

Uniden32

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Re: Folding OOT
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2018, 08:47:21 AM »
/thumbsup
Ralph Brandt
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