Author Topic: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?  (Read 188 times)

GreggPath

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Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« on: June 10, 2018, 10:06:49 AM »
This happened in a local bar league tournament I was playing in recently. I'd like to hear how you'd rule before I tell you how the TD ruled...

Hand is head's up on the river. Player A pushes all in for more than what Player B has. Player B calls. Player A, while still holding his cards, shows his hand. Player B does not immediately react, although he looks disappointed, but takes a moment to look at the board to make sure he is reading the hands correctly. Player A then takes his hand (which he is still holding) and tosses them in the muck (face down, unidentifiable). Player B looks confused then says, "He has mucked. I win the hand." Player B does, in fact, have a losing hand. How would you rule this? Important note, while Player B had an obligation to immediately turn over his cards since he was all-in, he was not slow-rolling to try and scoop the pot.

Dave Miller

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Re: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 08:30:48 AM »
As a dealer / rules guru for a bar league in NJ, I'm occasionally reminded by the only dealer who has dealt in the league longer than me, that it's a bar league. We depend on these people for tips, so keep it friendly.

Toward that end, we donít force all players to show their cards at a river all in. 

ó-

When Player A was showing his hand, was he holding it up so the other player could more easily see it, or merely holding it face up and inch above the table, but not dropping it onto the table?

I.E. If it were in a casino where there are overhead cameras, would the cameras have been able to see the cards?

If so, I'd give if to Player A with a warning that such action could cost him the pot in a casino. If not, then I'd be more inclined to give it to Player B since Player A's hand wasn't even close to being tabled.

On the other hand, I'd also tell both players that some casinos are using Rule One more liberally, in an effort to reduce the number of wins based upon a technicality.

HOWEVER, I might also consider if either player is an angle shooter. Not just in this hand, but in general. I.E. How do other players feel about the players involved. Again, it's about keeping it friendly.
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Nick C

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Re: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 03:03:10 PM »
This situation is a little confusing. First, you say player A shows his hand and then you say he mucks it unidentifiable. If everyone saw the hand Player A should get the pot. If Player B did not see Player A's hand, provided it was not properly tabled, I would award the pot to Player B. Of course, the extra money should be returned to Player A.

  If Player A's hand was properly tabled, face up for all to see, Player A should be awarded the pot because you can't kill a winning hand that was properly tabled. Other factors to consider. If Player A's hand was not properly tabled, how could you possibly award that player the pot? You must protect your own hand. Protecting your hand means holding on to it until the pot is awarded to you. No player should ever surrender a winning hand until the dealer awards the pot. That should be a rule.

 Another note: How does a dealer allow any player to muck without protecting the muck/ That's right, protecting the muck from discards hitting the muck.

GreggPath

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Re: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2018, 03:37:51 PM »
OK, first to answer some of your questions...

Quote
When Player A was showing his hand, was he holding it up so the other player could more easily see it, or merely holding it face up and inch above the table, but not dropping it onto the table?

I.E. If it were in a casino where there are overhead cameras, would the cameras have been able to see the cards?

When Player A was showing his hand, he basically lifted the cards a few inches above the table, and flipped them face up while still holding them. If there were cameras, they would have been able to see them.

Quote
HOWEVER, I might also consider if either player is an angle shooter. Not just in this hand, but in general. I.E. How do other players feel about the players involved. Again, it's about keeping it friendly.

Neither player is a known angle shooter.

Quote
This situation is a little confusing. First, you say player A shows his hand and then you say he mucks it unidentifiable. If everyone saw the hand Player A should get the pot. If Player B did not see Player A's hand, provided it was not properly tabled, I would award the pot to Player B. Of course, the extra money should be returned to Player A.

Yes, you have it correct. Player A showed, but did not table his hand. Everyone saw it. And then he mucked the cards without tabling. But Nick, you say that if everyone saw Player A's hand, he should get the pot. But in your next paragraph, you say:

Quote
If Player A's hand was not properly tabled, how could you possibly award that player the pot?

Seems like you are giving two different answers. His hand was not properly tabled but everyone at the table saw the hand.

Quote
Another note: How does a dealer allow any player to muck without protecting the muck/ That's right, protecting the muck from discards hitting the muck.

Bar league so hands are dealt by the button.

Now, on to the results. I'll start off by saying that I was, in fact, Player B. Player A was a brand new player that no one knew. I'm not a regular, but enough people know me, including the TD, and no one has ever accused me of being an angle-shooter.

So, when Player A showed his hand, I saw that he had a pair of aces, just like I did. He had a better kicker, but I took a moment to look at the board to make sure his kicker played. While I was doing this, I must have had a disappointed look on my face because he assumed he won the hand and threw his hand in the muck.

My first reaction was thinking I won the pot because he mucked his hand without tabling it and without being awarded the pot. I verbalized this in some way and someone immediately called the floor. Floor came over and immediately awarded the pot to me because Player A no longer had a live hand. NO ONE at the table agreed with this decision. I tried to stay neutral, except to defend myself. I wasn't trying to make a big deal about it, I actually would've conceded the pot if the floor hadn't been called (yes, I originally said something about me winning the pot, but that was just my gut reaction to the situation). But, once the floor made a decision and some players accused me of angle-shooting (new players who don't know me), I did defend myself and the ruling.

Furthermore, I was given a one-round penalty for not immediately tabling my own hand when all-in (which I don't disagree with).

Nick C

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Re: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 06:53:31 PM »
Hi, Gregg,

 First of all, if I were player B and I clearly saw that Player A had the best hand I would have conceded the pot. Player A needs to understand the rules at showdown. You said he was a new player and I always thought the experience of the player should be considered when making a decision. I don't think I gave conflicting answers. If the cards were properly tabled Player A wins. If Player B (you) did not happen to see Player A's hand, but everyone else claimed to have seen it, that's a different situation, at least in my opinion. The integrity of the players could be a very important factor when sorting out these tricky situations. You said Player A was a new player and you also said that some (that didn't know you) accused you of angle shooting.

 If I understand you correctly, you kept the pot. Did you at least give Player A the extra difference?

 Final analysis; the pot was awarded to the losing hand. Not in the best interest of the game.

Dave Miller

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Re: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 07:24:39 PM »
First of all, if I were player B and I clearly saw that Player A had the best hand...
That is not indicated in the previous posts. As I see it, player A was double checking to see whether or not he had lost. Once player A mucked his hand, player B can no longer be sure of what the kicker is. Yeah, I realize this is a stretch, but...

You said he was a new player and I always thought the experience of the player should be considered...
While I agree, there is no indication if player A was new to poker, or simply new to the league.


I am reminded of a hand I heard about in the league I used to play in, from about 15 years ago.

There was a situation, and the players called the TD for a decision. The TD could not decide, and eventually said, “whatever you guys decide is OK with me.” The players wanted a decision, an impartial decision. They didn’t care if it was the correct decision, they just wanted an impartial decision.


Based on the follow up post, I believe the TD in the original post was in a no-win situation. Give the pot to player B, and he was following the strict letter of the rules. But in a league, as I’ve said before, keep it friendly. So it probably should’ve gone to player A.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 07:30:31 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

GreggPath

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Re: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 07:31:38 PM »
Hi, Gregg,

Hi Nick  8)

First of all, if I were player B and I clearly saw that Player A had the best hand I would have conceded the pot.

Maybe, but that's more etiquette rather than rules.

You said he was a new player and I always thought the experience of the player should be considered when making a decision.

I do agree, to a point. Except when it is unfair to another player. I'm not saying that's the case in the situation, just in general. But, when I said this was a new player, I meant to this bar league, not to poker. He definitely was a seasoned player.

I don't think I gave conflicting answers. If the cards were properly tabled Player A wins. If Player B (you) did not happen to see Player A's hand, but everyone else claimed to have seen it, that's a different situation, at least in my opinion.

I was referring to these two statements you made:
  • If everyone saw the hand Player A should get the pot.
  • If Player A's hand was not properly tabled, how could you possibly award that player the pot?

Both of these statements are true in this situation. Everyone saw Player A's cards (including me) and Player A's hand was not properly tabled. You give two different rulings in those statements. Which takes precedence?

If I understand you correctly, you kept the pot. Did you at least give Player A the extra difference?

Yes, I did keep the pot. But I'm not sure what difference you are referring to? I could only win the amount of my all-in, I had no claim to the chips he had over that.

Nick C

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Re: Winner Shows then Mucks Winning Hand - How Would You Rule?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 04:40:49 PM »
You can analyze my answers any way you'd like, but in the end, the wrong player got the money and in my opinion, your integrity is a bit tarnished.

 The extra money that Player A put in the pot on his all-in wager. I hope you left him enough money to grab a cab or uber ride home! ;D