Author Topic: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling  (Read 736 times)

Shehu-J

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Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« on: May 03, 2018, 08:01:09 PM »
Hello everyone ,My name is Julian I m currently A tournament Director in a local Poker club in Greece.

I ran into a Difficult decision last night on a Cash game Hand, 2 Players at showdown : Player 1 Shows Third Nuts ,Player 2 Overexcited tables his 4 cards with force and by mistake 1 card sliped off the table ,2 were properly tabled and 1 into the killed cards and unable to be identified.

To be more specific the board was Ks5s6s Ah 4h ,Player 2 Had As9s4h ,the As fell off the table and the 9s4d was proerly tabled.
What would u guys do ?

Thanks in advance

Nick C

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2018, 08:56:56 PM »
Welcome to the Forum, Shehu...good question.

 Because it's a cash game you might have a little more wiggle room, so to speak. Tournament rules are often more strict. Without having more information I'll give it a shot.

 If you were certain that player 2 only had four cards, and you could clearly see that the ace of spades fell off the table I would have a difficult time not awarding him the pot. You'd be surprised at the integrity of many players. Player number one would be disappointed that he or she lost but they would probably concede the pot to the ace high nut flush, even if the card fell off the table.

 I mentioned earlier that I'd need a little more information to arrive at the best decision. I know you need all cards to win and I know that cards should never leave the table but sometimes strange situations occur and you need to rule in the best interest of the game. Sometimes cash games are between friends and the stakes are very low and if the pot is small whatever you decide is fine. However, if you are in a situation where both players involved are strong competitors (and not facebook buddies) a solution like offering to split the pot might not work.

 Let's look at it this way. You know that Player 2 probably had the best hand but he must show all four of his hole cards to win. So, you could easily justify a ruling where you would award the pot to the only remaining player with a complete hand...player #one. How would you feel if you killed player #2's hand knowing he had the nut flush? Your conscience or gut feeling might be the best gauge to answer your own question. It's a big job working the floor in poker...remember if it were that easy everyone would be doing it.

 I will pass along a brief excerpt from a book written by one of my favorite authors of no-nonsense poker rules. His name is Chuck Ferry and the book is "RULES OF POKER" He wrote: "When strict enforcement of a rule will cause an obviously unfair result, then the floorperson shall have the unrestricted right to waive any rule and make the decision which will cause a fair result."

Shehu-J

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 09:39:11 AM »
Hello Nick C ,thank you for the warm welcome and the very quick response.
I was positive player 2 had 4 cards and also saw the As fall off ,fortunetly i happen to be there when the situation occured.

Long story short ,i awarded the pot to the player with 3 tabled cards even though it felt a bit wrong ,i would feel more dissapointed though giving the pot to the worst hand.

Ur answer was very helpful ,thank you :)

GreggPath

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 11:00:50 AM »
I agree with Nick. If you are 100% certain what the four cards in his hand were, award him the pot with a stern warning that next time the ruling might not go in his favor.

Dave Miller

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2018, 03:34:11 PM »
I disagree.

I donít object to giving him credit for having 4 cards, but one of the cards needed to win the hand was the card that hit the floor.

On the other hand, did the dealer see the card, FACE UP, as it was sliding off the table?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Shehu-J

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2018, 04:32:23 PM »
I m Possitive that the card that fell off was face up ,anyone who was standing in a 5 meter radious could identify it ,i was standing next to it picked it up and tabled it.
Really my only problem is how often do we announce winning hands with a missing card at showdown. In this situation we have 3 cards identified and 1 missing.


Nick C

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2018, 07:25:44 PM »
Dave,

 You've got to be kidding. You're trying to tell me that you would award the pot to the losing player. Sorry, Dave, Shehu J did the right thing.

 Shehu-J...did the players accept your decision as fair? My guess is yes they did. If I'm correct then you made the right call.

Dave Miller

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 09:15:15 PM »
Why bother having a rule if youíre not going to enforce it?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Uniden32

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 07:27:34 AM »
Why bother having a rule if you’'re not going to enforce it?

Which rule are you referring to ?

For me, whether the card fell face up or face down is irrelevant.  I want the best hand to win.

We can take the time to suit the deck to ensure that no funny business occurred, and there aren't (2) Ace of Spades, if you're worried about that.

Push the pot to Player 2.
Ralph Brandt
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@uniden32

BillM16

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2018, 11:59:34 AM »
Nick alluded to the fact that:  "The TDA mission is to increase global uniformity of poker tournament rules." The TDA does not include rule distinctions for cash games.  On the other hand, Robert's Rules of Poker v11 (RRoP) covers rules for both cash games and tournaments.  However, there is much in common with the RRoP and TDA rules, especially in the question that you have presented here.

There is the technical aspect to be considered given the written rules.  Both sources speak to the matter of tabling cards at showdown for a winning hand:

TDA 2017 v3 - Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand 
     Rule #13
     Part A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7 cards in 7-stud, etc.
     Part B: At showdown players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65). Players who don’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking they’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.
     Part C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.

 


RRoP v11 - Section 3 - General Poker Rules - The Showdown
     Rule #1 - To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.


The TDA describes "Proper tabling" and makes clear that the TD "decides whether a hand was sufficiently tabled" and says a dealer cannot kill a properly tabled winner.

Taken literally, RRoP requires a winning hand to be tabled correctly with all required cards. "... a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table ..."

So, what about your scenario?  What about a hand that was a clear winner (100% identifiable) that was improperly tabled? Both sources provide for this as well.

TDA 2017 v3 - Floor Decisions 
     Rule #1
     The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.


Section 2 - House Policies - Decision-making
     Rule #1.     Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.


A TD has to ask themselves: Is it fair to award the money to a losing hand because the winning hand (100% identifiable) was mishandled (not strictly tabled properly)?

IMO: Both the TDA (tournament rules) and RRoP (cash and tournament rules) on fairness are provided so that we can override the technical rules in this case.  Give the chips/cash to the winning hand.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 12:11:31 PM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2018, 03:21:01 PM »
Bill, thanks for doing that research and quoting those rules here. I meant to do that but forgot. The first half of your post is great.

However, the second half, what are you quote Rule One, makes my head spin. The original poster wanted a ruling. If we’re going to merely invoke Rule One, why don’t we just go ahead and eliminate every rule except Rule One?

That’s why I said this:
Why bother having a rule if you’re not going to enforce it?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 03:22:21 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2018, 07:49:10 PM »
If we’re going to merely invoke Rule One, why don’t we just go ahead and eliminate every rule except Rule One?

That’s why I said this:
Why bother having a rule if you’re not going to enforce it?

Dave,

Why have TDA Rule #1 if it cannot be used? Are you suggesting that TDA Rule #1 be eliminated or modified?  If so, perhaps you should start a new topic on that subject.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 07:58:30 PM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2018, 04:11:47 AM »
No, Iím merely suggesting that the original poster was looking for a ruling that didnít invoke Rule One.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2018, 05:20:17 AM »
Dave, I understand your feelings about following a strict adherence to our poker rules. However, I believe the original rule makers, (sort of like the framers of our Constitution) set a high standard for the rule of law. Rule #1 gives the floor personnel or management the tools to make a sound decision in the event of a violation of a written rule. There are however important variables that could allow us to make different rulings on what appear to be two identical situations. The intent of the player must always be considered. We are not mind readers so that's not my argument. The point is: When a player deliberately ditches a holecard, or tries to conceal its identity. or hides a card under the table, or any other such devious action...that player must be dealt with in a manner that punishes the offender to the strictest interpretation of the rule. On the other hand, the situation described in the original post indicated that a card somehow accidentally "slipped off the table." Therefore, based on the power delegated to my position, I could not, in good conscience rule the best hand dead!

Dave Miller

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Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2018, 10:14:25 AM »
Nick -

Yeah, I guess explained that way, I agree with you.

For what itís worth, I deal in a bar league. If this had happened in the league, I would have ruled as you did, but that is more because we try to keep it friendly. I would make the ruling, but also warn that it might be ruled entirely differently in a casino.

Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?