POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General

going from 3 players to two (why is player paying SB two times in a row?)

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VeloPR27:
2 questions on dead button / blind movement when going from 3 players to two.

1.  Alice on button, Bob SB, Carol BB.  Alice on the button is eliminated.  So BB travels to Bob, Carol becomes the SB and the button.  I understand this as BB must move, though creates inequity in that  Bob has to act first post-flop two hands in a row.  But, this is the correct button movement and blinds I am quite sure.

But, I am less sure of the rationale for the situation when:

2. Alice on button, Bob on SB, Carol BB.  Carol in BB is eliminated.  So, my understanding is that BB moves to Alice and Bob is small blind (again) and the button.

Question I have is why isn't there no small blind in this situation.  That is, Alice becomes BB as she would if Carol had not been eliminated, but Bob would be the Button, and there would be no small blind (position that Carol was in would have been SB, but was eliminated). 

If more players are in a hand when the BB is eliminated there is no subsequent SB, so why would it be different when you are going from 3 players to 2. (unless TDA has rule that SB would be payed twice in multiple player action as well, and would be small blind and button, which I don't think is the case but I can't find it in the rules.

thanks,

BillM16:
Hey Velo,

Welcome to the forum.

I have often found that TDA Rules do not include details that a majority of members consider to be common knowledge.  These include many of the details found in other references, such as Robert's Rules of Poker version 11.

RRoP v11 Rule #31

"In heads-up play with two blinds, the small blind is on the button. When play becomes heads-up, the player who had the big blind the most recently is given the button, and his opponent is given the big blind."

As you can see, in RRoP it is very clear that when heads-up both the SB and BB are always paid and that the Button is always moved to the player who most recently paid the BB.
Alice is button, Bob SB, Carol BB.

* Alice is eliminated.          Carol was BB most recently.  Carol is given the button. Carol is SB. Bob is BB. 

* Bob is eliminated.          Carol was BB most recently.  Carol is given the button. Carol is SB. Alice is BB.

* Carol is eliminated.          Bob was BB most recently.  Bob is given the button. Bob is SB. Alice is BB.

The rationale:  In poker, position has value but chips have more value.

Regards,
B~

VeloPR27:
appreciate the confirmation.

I find it still odd that TDA wouldn't be very specific in their own rules that address this.  Many well established rules are reiterated in TDA and it seems odd to refer to another set of rules as the "back up" for what TDA does not address.  Are we using TDA or are we using Robert's Rules (because Robert's has at least a few items that conflict with TDA)?.  Doesn't feel like a poker room should pick and choose rules and the TDA rules should address all situations.

I still am not clear about why there would not be an absent small blind when the BB is eliminated when going from 3 to 2.

I am pretty sure in a tournament that when there are 4 or more players and BB is eliminated that no one assumes the small blind on the next hand (you don't make the previous small blind repeat a small blind - he just becomes the button and there is no small blind, then there is a dead button on the next hand).  So, why then when you move from 4 players in a tourney to 3 players and someone is eliminated does the player who had the small blind have to repeat the small blind when the BB is eliminated?

Just seems inconsistent

thx

BillM16:

--- Quote from: VeloPR27 on January 21, 2018, 09:19:30 PM ---
I still am not clear about why there would not be an absent small blind when the BB is eliminated when going from 3 to 2.

I am pretty sure in a tournament that when there are 4 or more players and BB is eliminated that no one assumes the small blind on the next hand (you don't make the previous small blind repeat a small blind - he just becomes the button and there is no small blind, then there is a dead button on the next hand).  So, why then when you move from 4 players in a tourney to 3 players and someone is eliminated does the player who had the small blind have to repeat the small blind when the BB is eliminated?

Just seems inconsistent


--- End quote ---

Indeed, when playing heads-up or not, posting or skipping the SB when the BB is eliminated, can seem to be inconsistent.  However, referencing more from RRoP:


--- excerpts from RRoP v11 ---

SECTION 4 - BUTTON AND BLIND USE

RULES FOR USING BLINDS
1. (deleted)

2.   Each round every player must get an opportunity for the button, and meet the total amount of the blind obligations. Either of the following methods of button and blind placement may be designated to do this:
(a) Moving button – The button always moves forward to the next player and the blinds adjust accordingly. There may be more than one big blind.
(b) Dead button – The big blind is posted by the player due for it, and the small blind and button are positioned accordingly, even if this means the small blind or the button is placed in front of an empty seat, giving the same player the privilege of last action on consecutive hands. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #1, for more information on this rule.]
3.    In heads-up play with two blinds, the small blind is on the button. When play becomes heads-up, the player who had the big blind the most recently is given the button, and his opponent is given the big blind.

--- end excerpts ---


TDA rules use a Dead Button. The beginning of heads-up play starts a new round and the button is given to the person who last posted the BB.  RRoP says, Each round every player must get an opportunity for the button, and meet the total amount of the blind obligations.  Consequently, both players are obligated to pay a blind while heads-up.  When not heads-up, players can still meet the obligation to pay the blinds in each round even though the BB has been eliminated.  Under no circumstance is a tournament player allowed to skip their obligation to pay a blind whether or not they are present at the table.

Regards,
B~

Nick C:
I agree with Bill 100%. One of the issues with Robert's Rules is that it is used primarily for cash games. There was a time when the TDA preferred little discussion about "cash" games. Until all areas of poker are covered by the TDA we will continue to turn to Robert's Rules. If I may add some food for thought on the head to head ruling for tournaments: I believe that using a "dead small" after the BB is eliminated on the previous hand creates an unfavorable advantage where the Button would maintain the button position two hands in a row.
 I remember years ago, walking into a casino hosting a hold'em tournament and every time the table got down to two remaining players they did it wrong. I corrected them but it's easy to understand how confusing the rules can be.

 You might note (two remaining players) the first card dealt will go to the BB...That too is confusing.

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