Author Topic: forward motion  (Read 202 times)

mooredog

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forward motion
« on: October 30, 2017, 10:45:08 AM »
We had a player who heads up starts shoving a stack of chips forward. Before they cross the betting line (our tables have a betting line) the other player says "Call". The player immediately stopped pushing his chips forward just shy of the line and says "Fold". Do you allow the fold or force him to continue with the bet. In Robert's Rules it says in limit poker the action may be forced to be completed (why limit?) but I see nothing in tournament rules. We believe this player to be somewhat of an angle shooter and we heard about this during a break so we didn't rule on it at the time but did warn the player later. Personally if I'd been called to the table I would have forced the bet to be completed. Any opinions here?

Ash

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Re: forward motion
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 07:54:40 PM »
Interesting case, waiting for the answers of the experts :)

Dave Miller

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Re: forward motion
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 08:51:00 PM »
If the line is active, I would expect the entire stack to be bet and called - IF the chips crossed the line. Since they didn't cross the line, folding for free is acceptable. 

If the line is decorative, I would expect the player to forfeit a minimum bet when folding.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:52:39 PM by Dave Miller »
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MikeB

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Re: forward motion
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 11:08:43 PM »
We had a player who heads up starts shoving a stack of chips forward. Before they cross the betting line (our tables have a betting line) the other player says "Call". The player immediately stopped pushing his chips forward just shy of the line and says "Fold". Do you allow the fold or force him to continue with the bet. In Robert's Rules it says in limit poker the action may be forced to be completed (why limit?) but I see nothing in tournament rules. We believe this player to be somewhat of an angle shooter and we heard about this during a break so we didn't rule on it at the time but did warn the player later. Personally if I'd been called to the table I would have forced the bet to be completed. Any opinions here?

Thinking this depends on whether you rule that "starting to shove a stack of chips forward" in this case was significant enough to constitute an announced intent to bet.

Option 1: If you determine that Player A's action clearly was an intent to bet, then the new 2017 TDA Rule 59 (Version 3.0) Conditional and Premature Declarations applies: "If Player A declares bet or raise and B calls before A's exact bet amount is known, the TD will rule the bet as best fits the situation including possibly obliging B to call any amount". In this case you would have to use Rule 1 that Player A's "starting to shove" went far enough to be the physical equivalent of declaring "bet". If so, the TDA gives the TD the authority to bind player B, who declared call before the bet amount was known, to call whatever amount the TD feels is reasonable, including up to A going all-in. NOTE: Player A does not have the option to fold because under this option you have determined his action on this hand is a bet.

Option 2: If you determine that Player A's action was the physical equivalent of declaring "I'm wondering if I want to bet here", then he has not yet signaled a clear intent to bet and Player B's OOT declaration "call" has no meaning, because there's nothing yet to call. In that case, then A has made a non-standard fold under Rule 58: "folding in turn when there's no bet" to him/her. It would be binding and subject to penalty per Rule 58.

BTW: TDA has not recognized betting lines for at least 7+ years, instead opting for a "chips released" standard to bind a bet. Betting lines were always considered to be governed by house rules. That said, you can always interpret a non-standard gesture as action if you feel it fits (Rule 2: "make their intentions clear"; and Rule 3 "... using non-standard terms or gestures is at player's risk and may result in a ruling other than what the player intended")

Interesting case!

Nick C

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Re: forward motion
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2017, 08:39:00 AM »
moordog,

 I have always been a big fan of a betting line. Unfortunately, because the calling player did not wait for the player to complete his action, I would allow that player to retract his chips. Rules for betting lines are certainly much easier to justify than the opinion of a dealer or player that decides the chips were pushed out far enough to confirm intent. That's my opinion, anyway.

 I've witnessed players pushing complete stacks forward, (as you stated) only to have them retracted because the next player was stacking his chips indicating an obvious intent to call! Ridiculous!

 Could never understand the "chip release" rule??? Does that mean as long as I have my hands or fingers still touching the chips, I can withdraw? ???

Max D

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Re: forward motion
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2017, 02:24:31 PM »
Reading this, if we enforce the betting line, the first time I would go with Nick and warn both players about the line, calling prior to knowing about the bet, and angle shooting. (hopefully one warning will be enough)
If player "A" repeats his shenanigans then I would either  start applying Mike's logic to stop angle shooting or penalizing the player.  Hopefully player B would have learned to wait for a actual crossing of the line before betting by then.
Max D

BillM16

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Re: forward motion
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2017, 03:41:31 PM »
BTW: TDA has not recognized betting lines for at least 7+ years, instead opting for a "chips released" standard to bind a bet. Betting lines were always considered to be governed by house rules. That said, you can always interpret a non-standard gesture as action if you feel it fits (Rule 2: "make their intentions clear"; and Rule 3 "... using non-standard terms or gestures is at player's risk and may result in a ruling other than what the player intended")

During recent TDA Summits chips released has been discussed and seems to be generally accepted as a binding bet.  However, the written TDA Rules do not make this clear.  Instead, the written rules state: Bets are by verbal declaration and/or pushing out chips.  Summit discussions regarding the movement of chips forward and the binding amount of the bet have not been distilled into a written rule for making bets with chips released.  For example, if a stack of chips are pushed forward while they are sitting on the felt then the entire stack is the bet.  On the other hand, if a single stack of chips is lifted and carried forward while off of the felt, then a binding bet can be less than the amount of the entire stack if the player releases one or more parts of the stack onto the felt and then returns the remaining chips to his stack - all with a single forward motion. 

When physical betting lines are used, the chips that cross the line make the bet.  Most TDA members seem to prefer chips released in a single forward motion rather than betting lines.  IMO: The TDA Rules should make clear how chips may move forward and be released from the player's hand onto the felt.  Chips are not always pushed out while setting on the felt.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 03:43:19 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: forward motion
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2017, 07:52:29 AM »
Hello, Bill.

 I have to agree with you. There is always confusion created when it comes to forward motion or grabbing a stack of chips and betting less.
 The simple solution is to declare your bet, or push the intended bet forward and return your hand to a rest position.

 I remember a player from long ago. He would pick up two stacks of chips, one in each hand, move forward and drop a single chip! It was very unnerving, especially when you were about to bet and from the corner of your eye, you could see him picking up his stacks ready to pounce! :-\  It might have been "within the rules" but it was highly unethical.

 There were times when he would pick up his chips and the opposing player, or players, would actually surrender their hands before he even bet! His antics often times would stop a player in front of him from betting because he convinced them he was going to call or possibly even raise.

 This is why I've always been in favor of a betting line. You cross the line, you've made a bet...no questioning if the chips were pushed out far enough...and, oh yes, if you pick up a stack and move forward across that line, you are committed to that amount.