POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General

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mooredog:
We had a player who heads up starts shoving a stack of chips forward. Before they cross the betting line (our tables have a betting line) the other player says "Call". The player immediately stopped pushing his chips forward just shy of the line and says "Fold". Do you allow the fold or force him to continue with the bet. In Robert's Rules it says in limit poker the action may be forced to be completed (why limit?) but I see nothing in tournament rules. We believe this player to be somewhat of an angle shooter and we heard about this during a break so we didn't rule on it at the time but did warn the player later. Personally if I'd been called to the table I would have forced the bet to be completed. Any opinions here?

Ash:
Interesting case, waiting for the answers of the experts :)

Dave Miller:
If the line is active, I would expect the entire stack to be bet and called - IF the chips crossed the line. Since they didn't cross the line, folding for free is acceptable. 

If the line is decorative, I would expect the player to forfeit a minimum bet when folding.

MikeB:

--- Quote from: mooredog on October 30, 2017, 10:45:08 AM ---We had a player who heads up starts shoving a stack of chips forward. Before they cross the betting line (our tables have a betting line) the other player says "Call". The player immediately stopped pushing his chips forward just shy of the line and says "Fold". Do you allow the fold or force him to continue with the bet. In Robert's Rules it says in limit poker the action may be forced to be completed (why limit?) but I see nothing in tournament rules. We believe this player to be somewhat of an angle shooter and we heard about this during a break so we didn't rule on it at the time but did warn the player later. Personally if I'd been called to the table I would have forced the bet to be completed. Any opinions here?

--- End quote ---

Thinking this depends on whether you rule that "starting to shove a stack of chips forward" in this case was significant enough to constitute an announced intent to bet.

Option 1: If you determine that Player A's action clearly was an intent to bet, then the new 2017 TDA Rule 59 (Version 3.0) Conditional and Premature Declarations applies: "If Player A declares bet or raise and B calls before A's exact bet amount is known, the TD will rule the bet as best fits the situation including possibly obliging B to call any amount". In this case you would have to use Rule 1 that Player A's "starting to shove" went far enough to be the physical equivalent of declaring "bet". If so, the TDA gives the TD the authority to bind player B, who declared call before the bet amount was known, to call whatever amount the TD feels is reasonable, including up to A going all-in. NOTE: Player A does not have the option to fold because under this option you have determined his action on this hand is a bet.

Option 2: If you determine that Player A's action was the physical equivalent of declaring "I'm wondering if I want to bet here", then he has not yet signaled a clear intent to bet and Player B's OOT declaration "call" has no meaning, because there's nothing yet to call. In that case, then A has made a non-standard fold under Rule 58: "folding in turn when there's no bet" to him/her. It would be binding and subject to penalty per Rule 58.

BTW: TDA has not recognized betting lines for at least 7+ years, instead opting for a "chips released" standard to bind a bet. Betting lines were always considered to be governed by house rules. That said, you can always interpret a non-standard gesture as action if you feel it fits (Rule 2: "make their intentions clear"; and Rule 3 "... using non-standard terms or gestures is at player's risk and may result in a ruling other than what the player intended")

Interesting case!

Nick C:
moordog,

 I have always been a big fan of a betting line. Unfortunately, because the calling player did not wait for the player to complete his action, I would allow that player to retract his chips. Rules for betting lines are certainly much easier to justify than the opinion of a dealer or player that decides the chips were pushed out far enough to confirm intent. That's my opinion, anyway.

 I've witnessed players pushing complete stacks forward, (as you stated) only to have them retracted because the next player was stacking his chips indicating an obvious intent to call! Ridiculous!

 Could never understand the "chip release" rule??? Does that mean as long as I have my hands or fingers still touching the chips, I can withdraw? ???

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