Author Topic: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.  (Read 723 times)

MikeB

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Should the rule for multiple short all-ins / amount to re-open and minimum raise be clarified in the rules and/o Illustration Addendum? This topic is the subject of the following thread:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1477.0

Nick C

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 09:16:04 PM »
Mike, Please see if this is a valid enough argument to change our raise rules for no limit:

Adam opens post flop 400
Bonnie all-in for 1000
Carl calls 1000
Dave all-in for 700
Eddy all-in for 600
Freddie all-in for 500
George all-in for 600
Helen all-in for 200

I think you see where I'm going. Bonnies' all-in reopens the betting to Adam. All of our prior examples escalate with each all-in. I really think we should consider making a change. I'd like to see: Any short all-in as a meaningless action. Furthermore, in order to reopen a bet to any player not all-in, the amount required to call must at least double that of any player who has already acted on that round.

Anyway, that's what I'd like to see and it would be so much easier to understand. Thanks for listening.

MikeB

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 06:13:16 AM »
The TDA specifies "the largest bet or raise" which in your example is Bonnie's raise of 600.

None of the other calls or all-in wagers exceed 600 so it's 1000 to Adam to call, or a minimum of 1600 total for him to raise. No change to the rules are needed, but a clarification in the Illustration Addendum wouldn't hurt.

GreggPath

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 06:48:53 AM »
The TDA specifies "the largest bet or raise" which in your example is Bonnie's raise of 600.

None of the other calls or all-in wagers exceed 600 so it's 1000 to Adam to call, or a minimum of 1600 total for him to raise. No change to the rules are needed, but a clarification in the Illustration Addendum wouldn't hurt.

I disagree that no change to rules are needed. Just my opinion.

Nick C

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 11:20:00 AM »
Everyone knows how I feel about the raise rules. It's nice to know that I have at least one respected member in agreement that a change is needed. I will give one more suggestion or some reasoning behind my crusade for a change. Let's take a look at the simple raise rules for limit poker.

 Limit poker will have a limit to the number of raises allowed for each street or betting round. Usually 3 or 4 and sometimes more depending on the type of game being played. There are also specific structures to each game. I will use 7-card stud 5 and 10 for this simple explanation. After the initial deal the must bet amount will be 5, with a three-raise limit. On fourth street, the must bet amount will be 5...(unless there happens to be an open pair in which case you may bet 5 or 10). On fifth, through seventh street, the betting reverts to 10. Now let's take a look at the simple rules for raising:

A raise must be at least 50% of the required amount to be considered a raise for the purpose of the three raise limit;
If an all-in is less than 50%...it is not recognized as a raise (This is very important for the point I'm trying to make)
If a Player goes all-in with 50% or more of the required amount to complete the raise, it will be recognized as a full raise and is counted in the number of raises allowed for that round of betting.
Fourth street with no open pair. Adam is high and elects to bet...his wager must be 5 the only other option is if he is all-in with less. Billy calls 5...Carl calls 5...Diane goes all-in for 7...back to Adam...he can only call 2 more.
Fifth street; Adam bets 10 Billy goes all-in for 15 (this is considered a raise) Carl calls 15...(note: If Carl wanted to raise he would have had to go to 25) and Diane is already all-in.Back to Adam...he may fold, call 5 more or raise to 25.

 I know this is getting a little boring and I had no intention of dragging it out quite this long. Bottom line: Limit Poker considers a 50% raise and if No Limit would recognize a 100% requirement to reopen the betting our problem would be solved. I know I have better examples through the years that I have already posted but we've never reached this seriousness for a change before. Thanks for listening and as always your feedback is appreciated.

Nick C

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2018, 10:28:33 AM »
A couple suggestions to consider: for Reopening Betting

 No Limit & Pot Limit

  #1)In order for any player to bet after checking, or raise after previously betting on any betting round, the following condition must exist...The player who checked must face a full bet or: The player must be facing at least the equivalent of 100% of his or her previous last bet from the current betting round.
                                                                   Or
#2)A short all-in wager that does not double the size of any bettors last wager on that round will not allow them the opportunity to raise. A player that checks on their first option will not be allowed to check-raise unless they are facing a required minimum wager...this includes an all-in bet.

Nick C

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 06:18:49 AM »
I thought I might hear from a few members regarding this subject. I'd like some thoughts about the changes I suggested.

Thanks,
Nick

Max D

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 01:35:12 PM »
- I agree with the clarification in #2,
- I am little confused with #1:
  -  "The player who checked must face a full bet " makes sense.
  - "The player must be facing at least the equivalent of 100% of his or her previous last bet from the current betting round", I am not sure what it means.

Max
Max D

Nick C

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 07:43:38 PM »
Max,

 First of all, I want to thank you for your response. I think I am trying to make the rule as brief as possible. However, I think sometimes they do need more explanation. Let me see if This makes more sense.

#1a) Whenever a player opens betting or calls a bet, the only way he can raise on that round is if his or her initial wager is raised at least 100%. #1b) Any player who checks may call any bet but is restricted from raising unless he or she is facing a full legal bet.

Example: No limit blinds 50 & 100 post flop: Adam checks...Bobby bets 100...Cindy goes all-in for 190...Donna folds...action returns to Adam...he may fold, call 190, or raise. Adam may raise because of Bobby's bet of 100. If Adam does choose to raise, his raise must be at least 100 more bringing his total min raise to 290.  If Adam decides to only call Cindy's all-in bet of 190, Bobby can fold or call 90 more...he may not raise because Cindy's short all-in was not at least 100% of his last wager.

I'm running out of time. Let me know what you think. Thanks, Max.

GreggPath

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 08:16:32 AM »
Nick,

What do you think of this wording?

A player may only raise if it is their first opportunity to act in the current round or if they are facing a total bet which is at least double what they have already wagered in the current round.

Max D

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 09:08:24 AM »
Got it Nick.  So the real question: should rules #48 & #47 and/or the addendum be tweaked/clarified? 
And the clarification is specifically around:
- in #47 "must be at least equal to the largest prior bet"
- in #48 "are not facing at least a full bet or raise when the action returns to them"

When reading 47, 48 and the addendum it is pretty clear, but I agree that read independently clarifying the terms may help.
Max D

Nick C

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2018, 03:17:01 PM »
Greg and Max

 Greg, you wrote: "A player may only raise if it is their first opportunity to act in the current round" Not sure I'm understanding this. You might check on your first opportunity to act...or bet, correct?

 Max: Here is the current rule#48: Re-Opening the Bet.

In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager (or multiple short all-ins) totaling less than a full bet or raise does not reopen betting for players who have already acted and are not facing at least a full bet or raise when the action returns to them. In limit, at least 50% of a full bet or raise is required to re-open betting for players who have already acted. See Illustration Addendum.

I'd like to eliminate what I've highlighted in red.

GreggPath

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2018, 08:56:51 AM »
Greg, you wrote: "A player may only raise if it is their first opportunity to act in the current round" Not sure I'm understanding this. You might check on your first opportunity to act...or bet, correct?

I see your confusion. That could be taken as to mean raising is your only option in those situations. I'm trying to point out situations when you CAN raise, not MUST raise. Maybe instead, "The only situations where a player may raise if it is their first opportunity to act in the current round (and they are facing a bet) or if they are facing a total bet which is at least double what they have already wagered in the current round."

Max: Here is the current rule#48: Re-Opening the Bet.

In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager (or multiple short all-ins) totaling less than a full bet or raise does not reopen betting for players who have already acted and are not facing at least a full bet or raise when the action returns to them. In limit, at least 50% of a full bet or raise is required to re-open betting for players who have already acted. See Illustration Addendum.

I'd like to eliminate what I've highlighted in red.

But I think I am trying to get to the same rule as your are. That is, multiple short all-ins should be considered a full raise if they reach the target cumulatively.

Nick C

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Re: Multiple short all-ins, re-opening the bet, minimum amt to raise etc.
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2018, 06:46:38 PM »
Gregg,

 Yes...so the bottom line: At least one of the all-in players has got to reach a double your bet before you can raise! The short all-in is meaningless...the short all-in is irrelevant...the short all-in should be overlooked...a short all-in of any fraction of an increase can never be calculated as a raise...etc, etc, etc!