Author Topic: Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot  (Read 1117 times)

Ash

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Hi guys
Here is the case

River card
Players A, B, C check, player D bets, player A is thinking, players B and C fold, player D also folds supposing it is over, and then player A says he is still there. Neither the dealer nor the other players saw A had still his cards.
Who wins the pot?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 11:47:44 AM by MikeB »

Ash

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Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 03:14:10 PM »
I forgot to mention that D's cards are fold deep in the muck and non retrievable
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 11:47:56 AM by MikeB »

Max D

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 03:31:37 PM »
Rule 12: Declarations. Cards Speak at Showdown
Cards speak to determine the winner. Verbal declarations of hand value are not binding at showdown but deliberately miscalling a hand may be penalized. Any player in the hand or not, should speak up if he thinks a mistake is being made in reading hands or awarding the pot.
Rule 13B: B: At showdown a player must protect his hand while waiting for it to be read (See also Rule 60). If a player does not fully table his cards, then mucks thinking he has won, he does so at his risk. If the cards are not 100% identifiable and the TD rules the hand was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.

Player A takes the pot, you can't win without cards.  TD can probably gives the last bet back to player D, unless player A calls then the pot is right.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 03:35:27 PM by Max D »
Max D

Nick C

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 04:30:44 PM »
I agree Player D can not win the pot but he should get his last uncalled bet returned.

Ash

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 05:51:59 PM »
In that case i think rule 13b is not valid because it was not yet a shodown situation.
In fact the case would be the same at the turn card for instance

Ash

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 05:53:51 PM »
Should A get a penalty for not reacting before D folds?

BillM16

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 05:03:51 AM »
Player A must keep his card visible to all.  Player A has an obligation to speak up when Player B acted OOT and folded.  He certainly had an opportunity and obligation to speak up when Player C acted OOT and folded.  Player A waited until Player D mucked before speaking up.  That sounds like a clear case of angle shooting.  I'd need more familiarity with the game and the players but this is a case where the best interests of the game and fairness could warrant a decision that would not reward Player A.

Nick C

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 07:16:52 AM »
I have to agree with Bill if the reputation of the player involved has a history of devious tactics.  A quick answer, without suspicion, would award the pot to Player A.

 There are other possibilities to consider. Why did the players not see Player A? Why did the dealer, also miss Player A? How much time elapsed before the players prematurely released their cards?

Ash

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 07:34:50 PM »
No bad reputation of player A.
The other players said his cards were slightly hidden behind the chips, he was counting his stack and maybe B, C, and D folded quickly. The dealer skipped also his was still in the game...
In fact there are numerous mistakes made by all the actors involved in this game.
Tricky situation!

Nick C

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 09:57:15 PM »
Sorry, Ash, Not quite understanding what you wrote about the dealer:"The dealer skipped also his was still in the game,"?
The bottom line: No way the pot goes to anyone but Player A...he's the only player with cards! :D Also, if what you say is true, he probably should get no penalty either.

Steff0111

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 11:08:55 PM »
I am with you, Nick!

Everyone makes a mistake, but Player A has still a live hand- the only hand!
So itīs his pot!

Dave Miller

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 05:12:14 AM »
I also agree that the pot goes to A - the only player with live cards.

Assuming his cards weren't hidden in a way to encourage the OOT action, is it angle shooting to remain silent to see how far the OOT domino effect proceeds before acting?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 06:34:58 AM »
Dave, I'm glad we agree, however, one of the dealer's duties is to control the flow of the game and direct the action to the proper bettor. Sitting back and allowing improper bettors to act after you, in this case, required a complete breakdown of proper procedures by the players and dealer. Intentional angle shooting would be highly unethical and worthy of reprimand.

MikeB

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 07:35:50 AM »
The OP states: "player A is thinking, players B and C fold, player D also folds supposing it is over, and then player A says he is still there. Neither the dealer nor the other players saw A had still his cards".

There are several problems with A's behavior here:

1: He didn't keep his cards visible but rather "hidden behind his chips" and "neither the dealer nor other players saw A's cards". See 2017 TDA Rules #2 and #25-C.

2: He silently let substantial action occur to his left, not speaking up to protect his action until after 3 players have folded to his left. See 2017 TDA Rules, #2, and #43-B.

3: Also we're told A was "counting his chips" rather than following the action, again a violation of Rule #2.

While D also had some culpability here by not following the action and "folding thinking he won", SA has occurred to the left of a skipped player and in such situations Rule 43-B requires the TD to fully assess the situation. Rule 43-B requires the TD to determine 1) if A had reasonable time to act and if so 2) How to treat A's hand. If a good case cannot be made for why A could not respond to D's bet (while both Player B and C could) OR even speak up until 3 players had folded behind him he's likely to have a dead hand at many venues.

There was a very interesting discussion at Summit VIII about guidelines that can be used for Rule 1 decisions. One of the most frequently-mentioned standards was "what decision will most support good play in the future", and "what decision will be most educational for all players at the table". It's very much in the interest of the game to make sure players keep their cards visible, follow the action, protect their right to act, and speak up immediately if skipped.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 08:09:56 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2017, 08:39:40 AM »
Mike,

 Ash stated that the folding players acted quickly...also, why would Player D fold his hand before the dealer awarded him the pot? I have not looked at any "new" rule changes from the most recent summit but I have a feeling there will be at least one controversial addition.

 There are dealer procedures that must be followed and that seems to be where most of these problems originate.

 Let's look at what went wrong. #!) Player A is skipped by Player's B $ C after Player D bets...#2) The dealer also fails to notice Player A was skipped...
#3) Player A fails to stop the action before Player D folds...

There were multiple mistakes made by everyone at the table. However, for you to say that in many venues Player A should have a dead hand is ridiculous. Barring an obvious intent to hide his cards under the table, or some other devious tactic, Player A is the only player with cards and killing his hand is criminal.

 What do you do with the pot if you decide to kill Player A's hand? :o
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 11:48:19 AM by MikeB »