Author Topic: Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot  (Read 1076 times)

MikeB

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Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2017, 10:22:42 AM »
Mike,

 Ash stated that the folding players acted quickly...
Not sure why you selectively read the OP. Verbatim it reads:
"player A is thinking, players B and C fold, player D also folds supposing it is over, and then player A says he is still there. Neither the dealer nor the other players saw A had still his cards".

Nobody including the dealer saw Player A's cards which were "hidden behind his chips". While B and C may have "folded quickly" they did so in turn, meaning that, unlike A, they were following the action. I've played poker many years and can't recall a situation where 3 attentive players discard so quickly that a 4th player can't follow their action and speak up.

also, why would Player D fold his hand before the dealer awarded him the pot?
While that isn't good form on D's part, 1) people toss their cards forward "in exchange" for the pot all the time and 2) nobody thought A had any cards, he had them hidden and made no effort to speak up.

I have not looked at any "new" rule changes from the most recent summit but I have a feeling there will be at least one controversial addition.
No doubt you'll find something in 2017 to disagree with, but Rules 2, 25-C and 43-B have been affirmed for three Summits now... they were all adopted in 2013 (Rules 2, 24-C and 38-B back then: http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Poker_TDA_Rules_2013_Version_1.1_Final_handout_PDF_redlines_from_2011_Rules.pdf)

There are dealer procedures that must be followed and that seems to be where most of these problems originate.
Each situation is different... in this case nobody at the table saw A's hidden cards (a violation), and A either didn't follow the action or if he did he decided not to defend his right to act, both also Rule 2 violations. The primary problem here isn't with the dealer, it's with Player A.

Let's look at what went wrong. #1) Player A is skipped....
Before this, what went wrong was that A hid his cards and unlike B, C, and D didn't follow the action or defend his right to act.

#2) The dealer also fails to notice Player A was skipped...
Why would the dealer notice that? Nobody saw A's cards according to the OP.

#3) Player A fails to stop the action before Player D folds...
So now there are 3 players folding to his left... typically that's substantial action. The twist in this situation is that the last "folder" is also the last player at the table... so does that constitute SA? That's what the TD has to decide here.

There were multiple mistakes made by everyone at the table. However, for you to say that in many venues Player A should have a dead hand is ridiculous. Barring an obvious intent to hide his cards under the table, or some other devious tactic, Player A is the only player with cards and killing his hand is criminal.
Player A has committed "crimes" to use your term against at least 4 TDA Rules. It doesn't matter what A's intent is here... only what his actions are: not keeping his live hand visible at all times, not following the action, not defending his right to act, and ultimately allowing SA to occur to his left after being skipped.

 
What do you do with the pot if you decide to kill Player A's hand? :o
If the decision is to kill A's hand, then D would be the winner. He's the guy who knocked B and C out, and A knocked himself out by not speaking up and allowing SA to occur to his left. See Rule 43-B. "... including ruling a dead hand as the TD sees fit under the circumstances". Believe me, there's a large contingent of TDs who would like to see the hand ruled dead everytime SA occurs to the left of a skipped player, assuming that player had reasonable time to act.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 11:48:32 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2017, 01:51:55 PM »
Mike,
You are basing all of your replies on Player A hiding his cards. Ash said: "No bad reputation of player A.
The other players said his cards were slightly hidden behind the chips, he was counting his stack and maybe B, C, and D folded quickly." If a player intentionally hides his cards...throw his ass out of the room! Beyond that, I could never justify killing Player A's hand in this situation.

Any good dealer would insist that all cards are in plain view, so the dealer should have said something. Mike, contrary to what you must be thinking, I would like nothing more than to agree with you on something...anything.

MikeB

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Re: Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2017, 01:55:28 PM »
"slightly hidden" in this context sounds something like "partly pregnant". The OP states "Neither dealer or other players saw A had cards".

And this is key... it's A's responsibility to keep his cards clear, not everyone else's responsibility to crane their necks to see them...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 02:12:40 PM by MikeB »

Ash

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Re: Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2017, 08:26:52 PM »
What an interesting debate here with that case
Nick C : sorry for the sentence you didn't well understand, english is not my mother language

Whatever you decide to give the pot to A or D, based on any rule, you know when you see that you will face a strong dispute between of one them, and that makes this debate interesting to find the best solutions.

Given that all people involved in the game made mistakes, and taking into account all the aspects, could you consider to split the pot between A and D? and then warn them?

Nick C

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Re: Action OOT: Player is skipped by multiple players... Who wins the pot
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2017, 10:10:28 PM »
Ash,

 If it were a cash game I think splitting the pot would be a reasonable solution, if it were agreeable to both parties. The TDA or any other rule set for tournament poker, would never agree to a split.

 the only other option would be to return Player D's uncalled bet and leave the chips in the center for the next deal.

 My advice to all poker players is to read, and understand the rules of any tournament you are playing in. Act in turn and protect your own hand and you should be clear of any troubles.

BillM16

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Re: Who wins the pot
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2017, 05:08:11 PM »
I also agree that the pot goes to A - the only player with live cards.

Assuming his cards weren't hidden in a way to encourage the OOT action, is it angle shooting to remain silent to see how far the OOT domino effect proceeds before acting?

Dave

Waiting quietly to see how far OOT proceeds is definitely angle shooting!

B~