Author Topic: Acting OOT  (Read 725 times)

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 11:36:12 AM »
Ash...that's exactly where the confusion lies. Betting the same as the OOT is changing the action, according to the current rule. That's what's wrong with it! If a Player bets OOT and the action is returned to the proper bettor, if that player does anything but check...the action has changed! Ridiculously worded, in my opinion.

GreggPath

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 12:59:14 PM »
I'm not sure where the confusion regarding the rule is... unless Ash and Nick are just saying they disagree with the rule.

If a player acts OOT, his action is only binding if the decision to him is the same when the action rightfully gets to him. If anyone bets/raises prior to the true action returns to the OOT player, his OOT action does not count. So, if the OOT player opened the betting, his OOT action is only binding if everyone else checks to him.

In response to Nick's last post, even if someone bets the same amount as the OOT tried to bet, the action has changed. He is no longer facing the same decision so his bet is returned. Assuming he is not trying to influence action via his OOT bet (in which case a penalty should be in order), why should he not have the option to fold or raise?

The only exception is if a Player C acts OOT and Player D acts (in ANY way... calls/raises/folds), then the OOT action is binding.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 02:36:33 PM »
gregg,

 I'm glad you joined the discussion. What you echoed is exactly what's missing from the rule, you said: "his OOT action is only binding if everyone else checks to him." That's what needs to be added to the existing rule.

 You also went on to say: "If someone bets the same amount as the OOT tried to bet, the action has changed."I don't like the fact that the OOT can retract anything. He screwed up by not waiting his turn. You also went on to confirm what's wrong with returning his bet...you said: "Assuming he is not trying to influence action via his OOT bet...."Sometimes a penalty is not enough. Wait your damn turn before you bet...and if the proper bettor bets, the OOT should not be allowed to retract anything. The only exception would be if the OOT were mislead by another player or the dealer. That's the way I see it and to me it makes the most sense.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:46:20 PM by Nick C »

Ash

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2017, 04:32:26 PM »
"In response to Nick's last post, even if someone bets the same amount as the OOT tried to bet, the action has changed"

I understand the idea but here is the limit :
I'm player B, C bets OOT, A folds, then I call the OOT bet, finally C decides to take his chips back and fold.
So i invested some chips and the first agressor C is not in the game anymore, whereas i would have checked without the OOT bet, and I can't disengage...

For me, the only exception should be : if a player calls the OOT bet, it can't be free of any actions and the bet remains.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2017, 04:50:00 PM »
Ash...I understand exactly how you feel, and I know where the confusion is coming from. First, you need to understand that Player A or B is NOT calling the OOT. The action is backed up to the proper bettor and his action will determine whether the OOT bet will stand. Before I continue, I agree with you that the OOT should not be allowed all options if either bettor, A or B, decides to bet.

 The confusion comes from the way the rule is written. I may or may not agree with allowing an OOT player all options, but the rule is obviously confusing... which is evident throughout this post.

 Unless I'm wrong again, the OOT should not prevent a check raise from either Player A or B if they choose to raise.

 Out of turn means just that...wait your turn. If you fail to wait for your proper turn to act, you will be penalized and your OOT bet may not be retracted...that's what I'd like to see.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:54:25 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2017, 10:42:42 PM »
Just realized that we need a couple illustrations of Rule 40-A in the Illustration Addendum. Anyone who has worked any length of time with this rule knows exactly how to apply it, but a couple illustrations wouldn't hurt for those familiarizing themselves with it. It's one of those rules no matter how you word it you need some illustrations. Thanks for the discussion.

BROOKS

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2017, 11:36:03 PM »
Ash you're not understanding.

When C acts out of turn, A and B are not acting based on C's OOT bet. They are acting on their own, doing whatever they want to do because it's their turn first. Pretending C's OOT didn't even happen.

You stated :
"I'm player B, C bets OOT, A folds, then I call the OOT bet, finally C decides to take his chips back and fold.
So i invested some chips and the first agressor C is not in the game anymore, whereas i would have checked without the OOT bet, and I can't disengage..."

There is no way that YOU as player B can CALL C's OOT bet unless you have checked first. A and B both have to act, because it's their turn before it is C's.
Once A and B have acted, then we determine what happens with C's OOT bet.
It is not possible for you to call C and then C gets the option of taking his bet back.
When C went out of turn, it was A's turn.
If A and B both CHECK, then C's out of turn bet stays. Then action comes back to A and B and they either call, raise or fold.

So whenever there is OOT action, you act like it hasn't  happened. Let everyone else who's turn it actually is act, then use the rule to determine whether OOT bet stays or gets pulled back.

Ash

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2017, 04:14:19 AM »
I guess most players don't know exactly how the rule works.
In a real situation, if A or B wants to call, he will do it immediatly, without checking first knowing C's bet is engaged and waiting for his second turn to finally call.

I hope they modify or clarify this rule this year

Ash

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2017, 04:20:45 AM »
My Idea : You bet oot? Ok it's my turn I call you now so you can't disengage, and you are punished that way

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2017, 07:05:35 AM »
Mike...Yeah illustrations would be helpful and, obviously necessary. :)

Ash

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2017, 07:06:03 AM »
In head's up, is it an exception for which the OOT bet is maintained whatever the action of the other player is?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2017, 01:12:59 PM »
Ash,

 I always thought that we should have a separate set of rules for head to head, but I believe the same rule applies.

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2017, 02:52:12 PM »
In head's up, is it an exception for which the OOT bet is maintained whatever the action of the other player is?

Hi Ash: Not at the moment. This issue will be discussed at the Summit.

Ash

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Acting OOT
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2017, 07:29:05 PM »
Hi Ash: Not at the moment. This issue will be discussed at the Summit.
[/quote]

good news!