Author Topic: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.  (Read 511 times)

Motobaka72

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Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« on: April 28, 2017, 04:07:13 PM »
The following happened at a 20+ table event.

Albert goes to the restroom and has 30k chips.

Charly goes to the restroom and has 130k chips.

Dealer gets pushed.

Albert returns and sits at Charly´s seat and plays his chips.

By the time Charly returns and the error is noticed, Albert already has 300k chips playing with Charly´s stack.

Floor is called…

BillM16

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 06:42:27 PM »
Total rewind. No action.

Nick C

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2017, 07:25:25 AM »
Bill,

 How do you do that...can you be more specific?

Dave Miller

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2017, 08:40:25 AM »
Wow. I've got lots of questions, but no answer.

How is the error discovered?
Does Charlie notice that Albert is now on his left when he was on his right, or vice versa?
Does Charlie notice because the stack sizes are significantly different?
What would have happened if Albert got moved to another table taking Charlie's chips with him?
What if there was an additional significant delay before discovery?
What about the 20 other tables?
And does the fact that there was a dealer push mean anything?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:41:59 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 09:36:37 AM »
Hey Dave,

 I don't have any answers either. Except that question about the dealer push. I guess they'd like to blame the dealer for not recognizing the return of the correct player to the correct seat. With a new dealer, he's excused because he had no idea who was in that seat before the break.
 I think you're correct about questioning how a player does not notice a different player to their left or right?
 Wow, hope that doesn't happen too often. ???

Motobaka72

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2017, 07:06:18 PM »
How is the error discovered?

Charly returns to his seat and is taken by Albert, the rest of the table confirms this.

Does Charlie notice that Albert is now on his left when he was on his right, or vice versa?

I don´t have that info.

Does Charlie notice because the stack sizes are significantly different?

I think that Charly notices because there is someone siting at his seat.

What would have happened if Albert got moved to another table taking Charlie's chips with him?

A bigger chaos I think.

What if there was an additional significant delay before discovery?

More chaos.

What about the 20 other tables?

I think they continued playing without knowing about it, maybe some of the tables near the one that happened notice.

And does the fact that there was a dealer push mean anything?

When dealer was asked for information she was not able to provide much info other than the fact that when she got to the table, two people were not seated.


Dave Miller

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2017, 07:27:52 PM »
Well, Charlie noticed immediately, apparently without playing at hand. That's much better for Charlie, although more of a headache for everyone else. If he played a hand, then the scenario will be a lot different, with him sharing in the blame.

But I still can't suggest how to rectify it.


Anyway, my question about the dealer was more about, if there was no dealer change, is it the dealer's responsibility to know which player is in which seat?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 07:29:03 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Motobaka72

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2017, 12:40:36 AM »
I think that we should expect a dealer that has been at a table for a good part of a down to know whish player is at their seat or not.  Although at a tournament with so much movement and a lot of players from other cities it might prove difficult to remember whish players are at whish seat. 

I´ve never heard of a similar scenario, and wish I’m never involved in one.  I don´t know how I would solve it or even what steps can be taken to prevent it due to the limited resources tournament directors have at their disposal at my country.  Anyway I´ll give it a try to see if that encourages other opinions so that we can all gain from them.

In this case since only one hand has taken place I would rewind.

In case more hands had been played I think I would be inclined to allow Charly to play the resulting stack.

In case Albert were eliminated using Charly´s stack, I would let Albert be eliminated and give Charly, Albert´s real stack plus 100k more so that his chips reflect what he had when he went to the restroom.

Please do comment what you would do to see if I´m extremely off track.

Nick C

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2017, 08:09:39 AM »
I think we all agree if the situation can be rectified because the error were discovered quickly that would be in the best interest of the event. The more hands that transpire, the greater the problem...for sure. There is much more involved than just sorting out the chips between the two players in the mix-up...there is a major problem with the distribution of extra chips won or lost. What a mess! I guess prevention is the safest way to avoid this most unfortunate situation.

 Seems the burden lies mainly with the players and responsibility would fall equally on the dealers. Two players at the same table in different seats would be bizarre. Two players at two different tables that both sit at the wrong table is just as mind boggling. The real problem is what Motobaka72 described in his original post. I believe that the offender or guilty party, is Albert because he returned from the rest room and sat in the wrong seat. Charly did nothing wrong and must be offered some protection. Don't know what the solution would be as far as distribution or confiscation of chips but Charly (somehow) should get his original stack.

Dave Miller

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2017, 11:25:00 AM »
I still don't have a recommendation on how to unravel this mess, but I have a relatively easy solution to prevent this in the future.

For cash and tourney, require players to place thier casino club card or card protector or SOMETHING unique on top of thier chips.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BROOKS

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2017, 04:43:37 PM »
This happened to me dealing a cash game years and years ago. I sit down, there is a seat with chips where you assume they're in the washroom or smoking etc...
Few hands later, a player sits there and I deal him in. He plays 3 hands, losing money in the first 2, and winning the 3rd pot.
Then a guy (Bobby) shows up yelling at this person to get out of his seat. The whole table starts laughing cuz this  is Bobby's seat. That other guy mistakenly sat at the wrong table. He was in the same seat one table over.
Personally I was upset with the other 9 players at the table that didn't say anything when this wrong guy sat there and started playing. Like how am I supposed to know who's seat that is.
We ended up checking surveillance and making sure "wrong guy" paid Bobby back for any amount he had lost him. The people that had won $ in the first 2 pots got to keep their winnings. Whatever "wrong guy" won in the last pot was given back, we basically voided the last hand.
I was just a dealer and did what I was told, and this is an odd situation where there is not written rule and the floor person needs to make a call which he deems  fair.

For the tournament situation, since it was only 1 hand, I would probably void that hand, have all chips go back to the players that contributed and deal that hand again with the puck in the same spot, with players in their correct seats.
Not sure where I stand on  whether or not a penalty is needed for the player that sat in the wrong spot. It most likely was unintentional and an honest mistake, but then again players make mistakes all the time in tournaments and "intend" to do something else, and have to pay the price. (ex: string betting, silently throwing out an oversize chip and meaning to raise, etc)

Nick C

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Re: Player not seated at his seat using other player´s chips.
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2017, 05:40:21 PM »
Hey Brooks,

 Your story of the cash game was funny but it got me thinking. Could you imagine a player sitting in the empty seat, playing a few hands and then cashing out!