Author Topic: Are open folds allowed?  (Read 752 times)

Dave Miller

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Are open folds allowed?
« on: April 23, 2017, 02:23:27 PM »
It's a simple question but I'm curious if specific scenarios change the response.

 If there are multiple players, and nobody is all in, can any player open fold?

If two players are heads up, but neither is all in, can either player open fold?

What about if they are heads up for a side pot?

What about heads up for the side on the river?

The best rule I saw was rule 15, but that's talking about when there is no additional action. Clearly, open folding when you're unsure if the other player is going to bet or check should not be allowed, right?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 02:27:21 PM by Dave Miller »
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BillM16

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2017, 02:48:29 PM »
Dave, see Rule #53.

It is also considered soft play. Again subject to penalty.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 02:52:59 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2017, 01:23:39 PM »
Hi Dave,

 I'd like your definition of "open fold" before I answer. Your last two examples, when side pots are mentioned, indicates at least one player was all-in, so the answer would be: NO they can not fold. All cards MUST be tabled.

A far as TDA #53 Non Standard Folds...I don't like that rule either >:( Folding when not facing a bet or when first to act violates too many ethical rules to mention. A penalty is not enough. Cards must be tabled at the end of the hand to erase any suspicion of collusion. Folding when not facing a bet!!! :o Unthinkable! ??? Ridiculous! :o Criminal! :o Unbelievable!  :o
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 01:35:00 PM by Nick C »

Dave Miller

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2017, 08:58:43 PM »
 I was under the impression that "open fold"" is a standard industry term. Whatever. It is exactly what you think it is. Folding when it is your turn to act, even when there hasn't been a bet on that street yet, and even if you're first to act.
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MikeB

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2017, 09:30:06 PM »
A far as TDA #53 Non Standard Folds...I don't like that rule either >:( Folding when not facing a bet or when first to act violates too many ethical rules to mention. A penalty is not enough. Cards must be tabled at the end of the hand to erase any suspicion of collusion.
Not sure what it is you don't like. Rule 53 specifically says that folding when not facing a bet is a violation subject to penalty. Like all penalties, that is left up to the TD.

Seemingly you would like to add to the rule that all hands so discarded must be tabled face up at the end of the hand? Not sure you'll get majority support on that one. It requires a new layer of complexity that alot of people will find tedious. OTOH, if a TD truly suspects that such discard is suspicious, of course the TD can retain and inspect the hand, but why make it an automatic requirement. Most of these folds are newbie errors; for example, a classic one being where the newbie is in the BB, there's no raise and when the action returns to the BB the newbie inexplicably tosses his cards. The rule makes clear that such actions are binding, i.e. that the hand cannot be returned to the discarding player. In fact that is the scenario that gave rise to the rule in the first place.

MikeB

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2017, 09:37:12 PM »
The best rule I saw was rule 15, but that's talking about when there is no additional action. Clearly, open folding when you're unsure if the other player is going to bet or check should not be allowed, right?
Dave: thanks for great question. 2015 Rule #53 addresses ANY fold not facing action, be that it's checked to you or you are the opener... such discards are binding, but also subject to penalty.

The history of this rule really grows out of a situation where pre-flop a newbie in the BB on his option pushed his hand forward (to discard) when there was no raise to the BB. There were some conventional standards that allowed for returning the hand to the BB and informing him that there was no bet to him and he could continue playing his hand. Rule 53 makes clear this is not acceptable... the discarded hand is dead and since this is about the softest possible play, it is subject to penalty at TD's discretion.

Please also note Rule 53 makes clear this applies only to betting rounds, not to the showdown.

Nick C

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 09:56:10 PM »
Hi Dave,

 I will agree with you that it should not be allowed. I also know that we are not speaking of "folding when first to act under the gun, pre-flop."

 I'd like to see the rule "forbid" folding when not facing a bet,or folding when first to act post flop. The penalty will then by applied to fit the violation. Making the act binding will only make "chip dumping" or "collusion" too easy.

Mike,
 I was about to post my reply before you posted yours. After reading both of your posts I still feel strongly about changing TDA #53...I also don't like the idea of killing the BB when the action returns to him without a raise. Is that really the way to punish a new player? Is that really the way to guarantee that the best hand and rightful winner gets the pot? What's wrong with nicely telling the new player that he's already in for the bet and giving his cards back?

 I'll repeat my feelings about the ease of chip dumping and collusion by allowing the player to muck instead of checking.

Motobaka72

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2017, 11:51:33 PM »
I think that rule #53 covers this.  I understand the point about collusion but donít think that you should return a hand once it is folded.  It might end up being worst to try and combat collusion by returning a hand to a player that has already folded.  To me it should stay as it is. 

Dave Miller

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2017, 07:25:42 AM »
For the record, when I first posed this question, I forgot about / didn't see Rule 53. I'm quite happy with it, and see no reason to change, except possibly to add that such hands, even though dead, must be exposed on an all-in showdown.


In regard to the BB who folds when there is no raise, I agree that the cards should be mucked and not returned. And the player warned / penalized.

I've seen experienced players accidentally fold in this situation. Clearly, he has garbage. And any player who is observant knows it. But suppose the hand is returned, and his garbage hand hits a crappy flop? He could win the hand when he wanted to fold. Further, it can actually create angle shooting opportunities. If the flop is garbage, he might bet it even if his garbage didn't connect.

So in respect to the BB fold issue, I also agree with the rule.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 07:29:41 AM by Dave Miller »
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Nick C

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2017, 09:35:01 AM »
If a player happens to be all-in pre-flop, the BB can't fold...correct? Why should a player only have protection like this when there's an all-in? It makes no sense.

 I've been arguing this since I joined this forum. Why don't we stop the nonsense about making sure that the best hand wins, and all players have a vested interest in every hand and doing what's in the best interest of the game. If we change tournament poker rules to be no different from cash games, then yes...I would agree. However, tournament poker should offer more protection to secure the integrity of every event and in my opinion, our current rules do not!

 

Dave Miller

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2017, 11:15:10 AM »
That argument was regarding a SB who was all in for less than or equal to the BB, with no other callers.

Preventing the BB from folding there is not to protect the BB from his own stupidity, but to protect the other players from possible collusion.

If there are other callers, the BB should be allowed to be stupid, even if ANY player is all in for less than or equal to the BB.

T​he only time the BB gets "protected" is if all other players already folded, or called for less than a BB. After all, if the BB folds, who gets the side pot?
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Dave Miller

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 07:36:53 AM »
 I had the identical situation happen last night, I think with the same player, that prompted me to start this thread in the first place. So let me ask it again and see if I can get a more definitive answer.

 Pre-flop, one player is all in and there are two callers. The flop and turn are both checked. On the river, the first player checks and the second player folds.

 Rule 15 is very vague on this. None of the examples specifically apply to this situation.

 According to rule 53, his hand is dead/mucked, but he gets penalized. Why doesn't his hand get exposed? Why was the other player required to show his hand? I.E. Why does the first player who thinks of it have the opportunity to see his opponent's hands while mucking his own?

 Why not just show his hand rather than giving him a penalty?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 07:38:08 AM by Dave Miller »
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Nick C

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 08:07:30 AM »
Dave,

 I'm going to copy and paste Mike Bishop's earlier reply (#4) on this thread: "Not sure what it is you don't like. Rule 53 specifically says that folding when not facing a bet is a violation subject to penalty. Like all penalties, that is left up to the TD. A penalty is not enough.

Seemingly you would like to add to the rule that all hands so discarded must be tabled face up at the end of the hand? YES I would!  Not sure you'll get majority support on that one. It requires a new layer of complexity that alot of people will find tedious. Why not put it to a vote? OTOH, if a TD truly suspects that such discard is suspicious, of course the TD can retain and inspect the hand, but why make it an automatic requirement. Most of these folds are newbie errors; What about when it's a seasoned player? for example, a classic one being where the newbie is in the BB, there's no raise and when the action returns to the BB the newbie inexplicably tosses his cards. The rule makes clear that such actions are binding, i.e. that the hand cannot be returned to the discarding player. In fact that is the scenario that gave rise to the rule in the first place." A ridiculous reason to kill a potential winner's hand, who is in for all bets and releases his hand! Chip dumping? I'd say YES, there's a good reason to believe it is possible. Why not erase that suspicion? I'll tell you this, when I'm dealing a tournament, if the BB attempts to fold without facing a raise pre-flop...I will attempt to push his cards back to him (one time) and remind him that he's already in. Sorry, that's the right way to handle the situation.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 08:11:55 AM by Nick C »

Dave Miller

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 10:23:54 AM »
Nick-

Your comments are green? I think you and I are in agreement here.

I should add that the player who mucked also stated that he didn't want to show the lousy draw that he missed. My argument is, then why does he get to see the other player's hand/draw?
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MikeB

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Re: Are open folds allowed?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 09:00:59 PM »
I'll tell you this, when I'm dealing a tournament, if the BB attempts to fold without facing a raise pre-flop...I will attempt to push his cards back to him (one time) and remind him that he's already in. Sorry, that's the right way to handle the situation.[/color]
[/color]

Not sure what makes that the "right" way. In fact it was that exact situation of a dealer pushing a BBs cards back that gave rise to the rule in the first place. Players must follow the action and the dealer pushing the cards back here can be seen as 2 players to the hand.