Author Topic: Tournament Director Information rules to players  (Read 1206 times)

Vincenzo Morabito

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Tournament Director Information rules to players
« on: April 23, 2017, 05:56:36 AM »
I would like to represent this situation:
Dealer calls Floorman TD
The dealer tells the TD that a Player would like an information
A: Bet 5000   
B: Call 5000   
C: Raise 18000

A: allin 18300

P.S.  right amount of real spot: Blind 1K/2K A Open 5200 - B Call 5200 C Raise 18.000 - A Allin 29800 After discussion between TD/dealer


Player B Asks if 18300 is a "Raise" or a "Call" and Asks again if his call reopens the action to C

At the Player's B question, Player C says loudly that the players B can't have this kind of information by the Tournament Director.

Tournament Director looks at the situation and Decides to give the information to the player B:

"The Action Of A is a Raise but it isn't an aggressive action, so "if you call the action is closed and C Can only complete."

What do you think about this situation?

Has The Tournament Director acted well?

P.S. No house rules or any kinds of rules were available in room.

Best Regards

Vincenzo Morabito
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 11:08:08 AM by Vincenzo Morabito »

BillM16

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Re: Tournament Director Information rules to players
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2017, 07:09:23 AM »
Good morning Vincenzo,

TDA Rule #44: Re-Opening the Bet.
In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen betting for a player who has already acted and is not facing at least a full raise when the action returns to him. In limit, at least 50% of a full raise is required to re-open betting for players who have already acted. See Addendum.

Player C raise to 18,000 is clearly a full raise over the 5,000 bet made by Player A and called by Player B.  Therefore, action has reopened to both A and B.  Player A, who is facing a full raise of 13,000, went all-in for 18,300.  Action proceeded to Player B, who is facing a full raise or 13,300 and has all options available to him.  According to the TDA Rules, if Player B calls the 18,300 then Player C will not be facing a full raise.  In that case, Player C can only call or fold.  Player C had raised to 18,000 while facing a bet of 5,000, an additional 13,000 on top of the 5,000.  To reopen the action to Player C he must face a full raise of 13,000 or more.  Otherwise, action is closed and Player C can only call or fold.  So, if Player B's bet is anything less that 31,000, action will not be reopened for Player C.

The player called the floor and asked for clarification on a rule.  TDA Rule #2 says that players are expected to know and comply with the rules.  Player B's request for additional information is merely an attempt to follow #2.  Of course, Player C will tell you that #2 also says that players should follow one player per hand.  But, Player B wasn't asking for advice from another player, nor was he asking for advice from the TD.  He merely asked for clarification on a tournament rule before making his decision.  Therefore, I think the TD and player acted appropriately.

Regards,
B~

Vincenzo Morabito

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Re: Tournament Director Information rules to players
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2017, 07:41:04 AM »
Thank you very much Bill


Dave Miller

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Re: Tournament Director Information rules to players
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2017, 08:03:55 AM »
I totally agree.

I'd also like to add:

Assume player B had simply called without asking about the rule. Then player C started thinking about his action, as if he was contemplating a raise. He should be allowed to declare the raise and amount before being told he doesn't have that option. Of course if he asks then he should be told right away his only options are call or fold.

Additionally, if he tries to raise, once told, he still has the option to fold. (Yeah, I realize how unlikely it is that he'd fold, but...)
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Vincenzo Morabito

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Re: Tournament Director Information rules to players
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2017, 02:13:14 PM »
Thank  You very much Dave,
Your add is very usefull to go on this matter and in order to apply rule in this situation.

MikeB

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Re: Tournament Director Information rules to players
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2017, 09:40:20 PM »
I totally agree.

I'd also like to add:

Assume player B had simply called without asking about the rule. Then player C started thinking about his action, as if he was contemplating a raise. He should be allowed to declare the raise and amount before being told he doesn't have that option. Of course if he asks then he should be told right away his only options are call or fold.

Additionally, if he tries to raise, once told, he still has the option to fold. (Yeah, I realize how unlikely it is that he'd fold, but...)
Dave, thanks for post. You've raised an interesting issue because in the minds of many, once he declared raise, given that is aggressive action he would be held to a call. But such is not explicitly stated in the 2015 TDA Rules and well worth discussing at the 2017 Summit. Many thanks for your post.

BillM16

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Re: Tournament Director Information rules to players
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 06:52:04 AM »
If betting had not reopened to a player who indicated raise, it must become a call.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 06:54:27 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Tournament Director Information rules to players
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 08:04:21 AM »
If betting had not reopened to a player who indicated raise, it must become a call.
This is the topic of a new thread:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1397.0

« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 08:05:37 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?