Author Topic: Hand for Hand  (Read 1113 times)

GreggPath

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Hand for Hand
« on: April 21, 2017, 11:21:08 AM »
I just noticed that the TDA does not address hand-for-hand play. Is this intentional to allow the house to make a rule that best suits their tournament?

Max D

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2017, 02:04:52 PM »
Are you thinking the process of hand to hand or/and the "rules" around elimination of players during a hand to hand?
Max D

GreggPath

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 04:03:10 AM »
Are you thinking the process of hand to hand or/and the "rules" around elimination of players during a hand to hand?

Both actually.

Nick C

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 09:13:33 AM »
Gregg,
 That sounds like something that should be addressed. The hand for hand I'm referring to is when multiple tables are  playing simultaneously and the dealing for the next hand does not begin until instructed.

 Definitely should have some rules. Sounds like a good topic for discussion at the 2017 Summit.

GreggPath

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 12:48:36 PM »
Gregg,
 That sounds like something that should be addressed. The hand for hand I'm referring to is when multiple tables are  playing simultaneously and the dealing for the next hand does not begin until instructed.

 Definitely should have some rules. Sounds like a good topic for discussion at the 2017 Summit.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to. There was discussion in CardPlayer a while back about what situations, if any, card for card should be in effect and if it's allowed that a player wait to make a decision when action is on them because he wants to see what happens at other tables first.

My opinion is that hand-for-hand should be used whenever there is a pay jump. Not sure what I'd do about players purposely tanking to take advantage of the hand-for-hand status.

Nick C

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2017, 08:06:51 PM »
I believe that some strict time restraints should be enforced when using hand for hand. Nothing more boring than dealing a quick hand, only to sit and and wait for the long pokey progress of the hand being played at the next table.

Consider the ridiculous rule that already exists for most tournaments when it comes to time allowed to act before a clock can be called. One minute and then a count down 10, 9, 8, 7,.... If every player took the allotted time to react on each betting round it would take hours to complete one hand! ::) Even online poker has a stricter rule...you don't respond on your turn to act, your lucky if you have 15 seconds to react before your hand is dead.

 So, to follow up on Gregg's great question: I say we enforce a strict timeframe on action in order to prevent too much stalling. I'm sure there are many other concerns to address. This is all I have for now. :)


Dave Miller

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 07:11:44 AM »
What good does stalling do?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 08:25:47 AM »
Dave,

 If you've ever participated in a tournament with players in the money or on the bubble, you'd know why players stall until they see who gets knocked out at the next table.

 Hand for hand seems to make sense on paper but honestly it detracts from the flow of the tournament. Perhaps the TDA should not allow hand for hand. Just thinking out loud.

Dave Miller

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 10:19:47 AM »
Yeah, it's been a while since I cashed in a tourney that was big enough to have a cash bubble before the final table, but from what I do remember, it seemed rather simple, and with no advantage to slow play.

When it got near the bubble, every table would play one hand, then wait for all other tables to finish. If nobody busts out, play another hand, etc.

If more than one person busted out so that one (or more) would be the bubble and another (or several) would cash, prizes were awarded based upon the player's starting stack. Should two players have the same starting stack, then the prize goes to the player with the better hand. I suppose in the unlikely event that two players bust out with the same hand and same starting stack, the prize would be divided.

Are you running tournaments differently, where an incentive to slow play exists?

Then again, this is how we do it in the league where I deal and am the Rules Guru, so maybe my memory is faulty.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 10:21:27 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

GreggPath

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 11:20:09 AM »
I've never seen it happen, but CardPlayer gave an example (I'm going by memory here for the example might not be perfect) where, during hand-for-hand action, Player A is facing an all-in. He sees Player B at the table next to him also facing an all-in. Player B has less chips than Player A. So, Player A stalls while he waits to see if Player B calls (and might even stall long enough to see who wins). If Player B calls (or wins), Player A will also call since, if they both bust, Player A still cashes. But if Player B folds (or loses), Player A will also fold because he doesn't want to lose the hand and bust on the bubble.

Dave Miller

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 12:11:21 PM »
Are you running tournaments differently, where an incentive to slow play exists?
Gregg -
Your example makes me want to retract my question. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 01:34:53 PM »
Nice job Gregg, and well written.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:38:47 PM by Nick C »

Uniden32

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 09:23:42 AM »
Gregg,

Unfortunately, in your example both Player A and Player B are splitting the min cash.

Players knocked out at different tables during a hand for hand are to be considered knocked out on the same hand.

Players knocked out at the same table during a hand for hand, would go in order of who had the most chips.
Ralph Brandt
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Nick C

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 12:41:53 PM »
Ralph,

 Please read Gregg's example over again. He explained it perfectly. Both players are not eliminated at the same time.

Uniden32

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Re: Hand for Hand
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 12:54:05 PM »
Nick C,

It doesn't matter if they are knocked out at the "same time".  What matters is that they're knocked out on the "same hand" during a hand for hand scenario and are at different tables.  Chip counts are irrelevant unless they're at the same table.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32