Author Topic: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown  (Read 1094 times)

BillM16

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 344
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2017, 06:43:09 AM »

I recommend  something along these lines:

At showdown, a hand not tabled, that was discarded face down, is considered
live until the dealer pushes the cards into the muck pile. Until then, a player may change their mind and table their cards, but only if they remain 100% identifiable.


Hi Bill: adding the 3 words in red to the present rule seems to be equivalent in language to your suggestion:

At showdown, discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck-pile.

Keep in mind the TDA has traditionally avoided saying much about dealer procedure, preferring to leave that to house training.

Good morning Mike,

While I prefer emphasizing the importance of the dealer's role, I do think that the three word change is a significant improvement and could easily receive consensus at the summit. 

Regards,
Bill
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 06:44:10 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2017, 07:01:55 AM »
I have nothing more to add. Some change is needed and any of the suggestions would be an improvement.

Uniden32

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Tournament Director at the Isle Casino
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2017, 08:57:24 AM »

At showdown, discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck-pile.


Might I suggest the following wording as I have removed gender, and added that the cards be retrievable (not identifying the dealer):

At showdown, discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change their mind and table their cards if they remain 100% identifiable AND retrievable from the muck-pile.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

BillM16

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 344
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2017, 11:31:41 AM »
Hi Ralph,

Cards cannot be retrieved from the muck-pile given that they are dead.

Regards,
B~


Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2017, 12:16:53 PM »
Only winning hands that were properly tabled and mucked in error, can be retrieved from the muck. Why do we insist on telling players their discarded hands can be retrieved? Cards hit the "muck" face down, they're dead! Any player that discards his hand, face down deserves to lose if he tossed a winner. Let's stop trying to complicate a simple rule. If you toss your hand, it's dead. If you toss your winning hand, you're an idiot! :o

How many times are we going to change the old rules that clearly stated: Players must protect their own hands, (especially the winning ones). If you muck your winning hand without showing it first...you lose! No redress. Redress, according to The American Heritage Dictionary: Correction...translate to No correction!

 

Uniden32

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Tournament Director at the Isle Casino
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2017, 01:54:46 PM »
Forgot to delete the ending of the paragraph, should have read:

At showdown, discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change their mind and table their cards if they remain 100% identifiable AND retrievable.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2017, 06:11:18 PM »
Ralph,

 Are you referring to leaving off "from the muck-pile" as the only difference in your two posts?

BROOKS

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2017, 05:14:57 AM »
Cards hit the "muck" face down, they're dead! Any player that discards his hand, face down deserves to lose if he tossed a winner. Let's stop trying to complicate a simple rule. If you toss your hand, it's dead. If you toss your winning hand, you're an idiot! :o

I really think this exact quote should be posted in every poker room! I love it!

BROOKS

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2017, 05:22:53 AM »
I do not like how it says that the hand has to be killed by the dealer. A player can toss their own cards directly into the muck and they are dead - no dealer involvement. When you have that line that inclues "the dealer" , it's pretty much saying only the dealer can kill the hand. So I can put my cards right into the muck and then pull them out again, cuz the dealer didn't do it.
"the dealer" is not necessary.
Instead of "cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck", I suggest something like "cards are killed and irretrievable once they have hit/touched/gone into (whatever word you want) the muck

Put this at the end of Ralph's suggestion and I think it's pretty clear:

At showdown, discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change their mind and table their cards if they remain 100% identifiable AND retrievable. Cards are killed and irretrievable once they have hit the muck

Or something to that effect. It's clear, and no way to misconstrue what anything means.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 05:36:30 AM by BROOKS »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2017, 08:00:04 AM »
Well said, Brooks!

Uniden32

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Tournament Director at the Isle Casino
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2017, 10:06:50 AM »
Ralph,

Are you referring to leaving off "from the muck-pile" as the only difference in your two posts?

Correct.  I do not see the need to add the words muck-pile.

As most of you know, cards in the muck do not necessarily mean a hand is dead.  There are certain scenarios where cards can be and should be retrieved from the muck (if they're identifiable).

If we say identifiable AND retrievable, I believe that would suffice and it allows us latitude.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2017, 11:02:46 AM »
Ralph,

 There is only one scenario when a hand should be retrieved from the muck...that is the winning hand that was properly tabled and killed in error. There are no other acceptable scenarios. Retrievable and identifiable do not apply once discards touch the muck.

 

Uniden32

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Tournament Director at the Isle Casino
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2017, 11:47:06 AM »
I disagree Nick.

I had a floor call the other day, where a player mucked his hand.  As soon as the player did it, he attempted to retrieve his hand, but the dealer grabbed his cards out of his hand and tossed them at the muck before he could table them.  The player's cards were "in the muck", but the hand was 100% identifiable and retrieveable, and because the player had retrieved their cards, I ruled it a live hand.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2017, 12:04:33 PM »
Ralph,

 If your dealer grabbed his cards out of the players hand and tossed them in the muck, you have other issues to address. First of all, you said a player mucked his hand, then you say the dealer took them from the player and tossed them "at the muck"?

 I'm not sure how I'd react if you pulled a dead hand out of the muck and declared him the winner! Sorry, you're wrong on this one.

Uniden32

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Tournament Director at the Isle Casino
Re: Suggested changes to Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2017, 12:31:46 PM »
Nick,

It doesn't matter what problems I have with the dealer, situations arise where you have to make a decision based on what's occurred.  Not every call is going to be black and white.

In this scenario, the player folded, tossed his cards face down.  Immediately he realized he had a winner, grabbed his cards.  The dealer then grabbed the cards from the player, and tossed them at the muck, where they landed.  One card was on top of the muck.  One card was touching the muck.  Both cards were identifiable.  Both cards were confirmed to be the player's cards by players and the dealer at the table.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32