Author Topic: No burn card on the flop  (Read 545 times)

Beaureguarde

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No burn card on the flop
« on: April 01, 2017, 05:41:45 PM »
I can not find the answer to this scenario. Can someone help?
Four players to the flop. There are three actions: bet, fold, and raise. Someone then notices that there is no burn card. What next?
My thoughts are that there was significant action, 3 players,  before it was noticed. I think the hand should have continued without the first burn card.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 05:54:59 PM by Beaureguarde »

Nick C

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 06:39:56 PM »
Welcome Beaureguarde,

 I agree, because of substantial action the hand should be played out even though the flop was turned without a burncard.

GreggPath

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 08:24:16 PM »
Welcome Beaureguarde,

 I agree, because of substantial action the hand should be played out even though the flop was turned without a burncard.

I should probably wait until after midnight to post this so you don't think it's an April Fool's joke, but I agree with Nick (and op)

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 09:27:32 PM »
Hello folks,

It's tricky because the flow of the cards is not maintained.
You might think my suggestion is weird, but since the cards on the board are not the good ones, I find as mistaken as a missing Big Blind or Ante in the pot. It must be there.
So, I would announce a rollback of the action, flashing the original burnt card and expose the 3 good cards. This only if the dealer can assure which cards should be the burnt one. If not, well I will pray he can because I won't feel comfortable with having to make a re deal nor continue the action.

Nick C

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 12:49:35 AM »
Sorry Boris, that's not the way it works. You'd probably guess the wrong burncard and the complaints that would come from the players that have already acted would be valid.

 As far as comparing this situation to a missing Big Blind The BB can always be identified and the blind must be made up before the flop. Rules for antes are different. If the deal is short any antes and the players do not admit they were short, the hand will proceed minus the ante.

 It is the dealers responsibility to be certain that the correct antes are confirmed before sweeping them into the pot, before the initial deal.

Dave Miller

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 06:55:32 AM »
Allow the action to stand and burn twice before the turn. This restores the correct turn and river cards and uses a variation of the four flop cards rule to justify keeping the flop as is.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 09:53:05 AM »
Dave,

 I like the idea because four board cards would be the "proper cards" but I don't know if I've ever seen that in the form of a written rule.

 For some reason this situation reminds me of a recent (last few years) poker movie. Can't even remember the name of the movie...but I do remember the ridiculous floor decision that was made near the end of the movie. It went something like this: The hero wins the pot and is walking away from the table (with all his chips)! He has finally beat his nemesis...so he thought. Next thing you know, he's being called back to the table because the dealer failed to burn before turning the river card! You guessed it...the hero returns, the river is used as the proper burn, and the new card gives the pot to the other player!!! Are you kidding me? That's not the only thing that pissed me off. The dealer was about ninety years old and they made it seem like his dementia was a common occurrence!

 It baffles me at times, how these producers can make a movie without any knowledge of the game and allow ridiculous mistakes to take place.

 There are other great movies that failed to research proper procedures when it comes to poker. "The Sting" with Paul Neuman and Robert Redford...There's a scene when a player bets $1,000 and gets raised $500  ::)

 There are others but I don't have any time right now. A good topic for another day.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 06:51:31 PM by Nick C »

Dave Miller

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2017, 07:58:37 PM »
I'm suggesting a combination of rules 35 Substantial Action and 36 Four Card Flops. As well as good old Rule One.


Yeah, I saw that movie too. I cried BS as well but for other / additional reasons. Wasn't there substantial action forcing the card to play? The hero was arawded the prize. Doesn't that indicate that the hand was over? Wasn't it more than a minute, as described in rule 21 Disputed Pots? And if we allow the dispute, shouldn't we go to the video tape to make sure it was the river burn card that got missed?

I give the Sting a pass for the error you pointed out because it was set in 1936. The rules may have been much looser then.

Even Rounders has errors. In the hand where the vilian 'bluffed the big ringer', the vilian executed a string bet causing Mike to fold. But I give that a pass too since it was the type of back room game where string bets might be common.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 08:02:53 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Beaureguarde

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 07:40:53 AM »
Thank you everyone for your opinions. No, it was not an April Fool's joke.
My wife was playing at a house tournament at a different table. The host of the tournament came to my wife to ask how to rule on the hand. Since I was not with her she texted me for the answer.  Come to find out the host's wife was the dealer at that table and was in the hand were the mistake was made. The host did not want to have to rule against his wife, so he tried to get my wife to rule  for him.
I was mainly interested in the outcome for future knowledge. I also like to be able to find a rule so that I can back up my decision, that is why I chose the "significant action".

BTW, they screwed up the hand very badly from what my wife told me. They ended up replaying the entire hand from the beginning. SMH.

Nick C

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 08:10:06 AM »
Hi Beaureguarde,

 House games do allow a more relaxed, friendly atmosphere than casino tournaments. It is a good idea to have a knowledge of the correct rules for all situations. As far as replaying the hand, sometimes it's the best thing to do if it's agreeable to the players involved.

 The reference to April Fools joke...was directed at me, and not your explained situation. It was GreggPath's sense of humor at it's best! :D It did put a big smile on my face. ;D I knew Gregg would finally come around to my way of thinking! 8)

GreggPath

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 10:59:24 AM »
It did put a big smile on my face. ;D

My job here is complete.  8)

Nick C

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Re: No burn card on the flop
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 12:19:30 PM »
Thanks, Gregg...I prefer this much more than the usual. ;)