Author Topic: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)  (Read 374 times)

Boris Mauboussin

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Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« on: March 28, 2017, 07:55:33 AM »
Hello folks,

Here is a situation.

We are on final day in 3 days tournament.
All players are ITM.

Blinds : 10K/20K/2K
We are on the river, 2 players involved
Player A : 1.2M chips
Player B : 102K chips

Action is the following :
Player A "How much left in your stack ?"
Player B "100K"

Player A bets 100K and says "Gift for you"
Player B thinks for 10 seconds and goes All-in for 102K

Player A folds and says "I didnt hit anything"
Player A throw his cards towards the dealer, and dealer mucks the hand

Floor is called
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 07:56:34 AM by Boris Mauboussin »

BillM16

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 08:21:04 AM »
Boris,

The floor should be called here as Player A could be chip dumping.  If I understand you correctly, Player A bet 100K, Player B shoved all-in for 102K, and the Player A mucked without making the tiny call of 2K.  Player A proclaimed his intent to gift his chips to Player B while betting slightly less than Player B's entire stack.  I would think that others at the table would want the floor to investigate this situation as well.  Player A may be facing a penalty depending on the details.

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 08:25:25 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2017, 12:50:30 PM »
I agree that there could be chip dumping and/or collusion going on, and a penalty might be due to BOTH players.

Yes, the Floor should be called.

Since it seemed that Player A's intent was to put Player B all in, Player A should be required to make the call for the extra 2K.

On the other hand, since Player B incorrectly stated his stack size, Player B might be limited to a call of the 100K

No matter what the Floor's decision about that last 2K, both hands should be tabled, and the pot awarded to the better hand.
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GreggPath

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 01:00:06 PM »
Putting aside the possible chip-dumping...

Quote
49: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct
amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a
count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount, the caller
has accepted the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all
situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.

Does this rule apply? It refers to a possible call of a bet... maybe this rule doesn't apply because there was no bet to call (maybe this rule should be made less specific so that it applies in this situation), but the Player A's intention was obviously to push Player B all-in. The bet by Player B should have been fixed as soon as Player A called (assuming the rule applies)

Nick C

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 01:56:17 PM »
I don't know how we can force a player to put in another 2K. I know it's a small amount compared to the bet but, I don't like it.  All player A had to do was go all-in. Suspicious, but beyond a warning, I don't know what else you could do. Turning the cards and awarding the best hand is out of the question, in my opinion. Player A folded...that's it.

Steff0111

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2017, 03:43:51 AM »
Iīm with you Nick!
It doesnīt matter how senseless it is... We canīt force players to bring in chips they donīt want to!
In addition: In this case the cards are mucked by the dealer!
So the floor has nothing to investigate- even though he wants to.

BillM16

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2017, 04:13:59 AM »
I agree that we cannot make Player A call the additional 2K.  However, Player A sized up Player B's stack and the said "Gift for you" before betting an amount that only left Player B with a couple chips.  Then, when Player B put the remaining chips in, Player A did as he promised and gave Player B the pot rather than calling the 2K.  Remember, 2K is less that 0.001% of Player A's stack. 

TDA Rule #64:  Ethical Play
Poker is an individual game. Soft play will result in penalties, which may include chip forfeiture and/or disqualification. Chip dumping and other forms of collusion will result in disqualification.


This is a classic form of chip dumping.  The player even said that he was gifting the chips.  I cannot count the number of times that I've read threads in this forum that were concerned about preventing this sort of "possibility."  Here you have solid evidence that the plan was to dump his chips and then he executed that plan.  Guilty!


Steff0111

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2017, 04:45:45 AM »
Thatīs the other point!
Of course the floor can penalize the behavior of Player A according to the rules.
But this hand is over and the pot has to go to Player B!

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: Unreasonable fold ? (other case)
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2017, 07:00:05 AM »
Hey folks,

Thank for your answers

Floor decision was to apply a 1 round penalty (8-handed) to Player A.
TD was also called to make things straight with the player A.

I want to precise that when Player B goes all-in for 102K, the stack size is easily identifiable 4x25K red chips and 2x1K yellow chips, so Player A knew that action went back on him.