Author Topic: Single card tabled at showdown  (Read 864 times)

Boris Mauboussin

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Single card tabled at showdown
« on: March 28, 2017, 07:43:40 AM »
Hello folks,

Here is a situation, how would you handle it ?

We are on the river, 2 players involved SB and CO
Board is : K87Q3

Action is the following :
SB checks
CO checks

Dealer "Showdown please"

SB waits to table his cards
CO waits for SB to table his cards

SB looks at CO
CO looks at SB
SB to CO "I want to see your hand"
CO "I want to see your hand too"

Dealer at SB "You have to show first Sir"

SB shows A2
CO shows only one card, a King and throws the other cards into the muck
Dealer intercepts the card with one finger before it went hidden.

Dealer to CO "You have to show the 2 hole cards, Sir"
Dealer gives back the non revealed card to CO facedown.
CO tables the card : a Ten

SB claims the pot due to CO showing a single card

Floor is called

Nick C

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 08:02:28 AM »
Because the dealer prevented the card from the muck, I would award the pot to the winning hand...the king 10. This, of course, is under the assumption that the SB has no ace flush. If the CO mucked his second card (beyond retrieval) a legitimate argument could take place. We hate to take a pot from the rightful owner but there are rules that insist players have the correct number of cards in order to win the pot.


BillM16

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2017, 08:08:40 AM »
Good morning Boris,

Please see:
  • Rule #16 - Non All-In Showdowns - In your scenario, neither player bet on the river so the SB is obligated to show first.
  • Rule #13 - Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand - Part A says, both hole cards should be turned face up.
  • Rule #14 - Live Cards at Showdown - Says that discarding cards face down does not automatically kill them.

In your scenario, the player in the CO clearly had the winning hand with a pair of kings.  The fact that he didn't want to show his kicker doesn't really matter here as the dealer did not muck the ten, his card was 100% identifiable, and it was properly tabled (eventually).  The player in the SB attempted to win the pot with the second best hand based on procedural technicalities that are not supported in the TDA Rules.

Regards,
B~

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 08:10:17 AM by BillM16 »

BROOKS

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 08:34:36 AM »
In your opinion, should the dealer have stopped that second card from going into the muck and therefore "helping" him win the pot. Or should the dealer let that card go into the muck because it is the players responsibility to know that he must open 2 cards. Should the dealer really get involved? If he throws his card facedown and it's on the way into the muck, should the dealer be interfering and stopping it?

Dave Miller

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 12:42:51 PM »
The dealer should NOT interfere with the path of the mucked card. To do so violates the one man to a hand rule.

Here's what I would do:

IF the card hits the muck, but is reasonably identifiable, or if it doesn't hit the muck, the dealer should put a finger on the card and call the floor, telling the floor, "I *THINK* this is the second card."

The CO player should then be required to announce the value of the card - rank and suit. Then turn over the card in question. If the card is correctly identified, give him the pot. Otherwise, give it to the SB.

If it got mixed into the muck, too bad. Give it to the SB.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

GreggPath

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2017, 12:53:47 PM »
In your opinion, should the dealer have stopped that second card from going into the muck and therefore "helping" him win the pot. Or should the dealer let that card go into the muck because it is the players responsibility to know that he must open 2 cards. Should the dealer really get involved? If he throws his card facedown and it's on the way into the muck, should the dealer be interfering and stopping it?

Good question. It's up to the player to protect his hand and to table it properly. If the dealer did not intercept the card, the pot would have been shipped to the A-2. I don't like the dealer getting involved with intercepting the card, but I also think it's similar to a player misreading their tabled hand. In that case it's OK (actually required) for the dealer (or another player) to get involved. This situation is different, obviously, but I guess the spirit of the situation is the same... a player made a mistake that can easily be remedied by the dealer without effecting the true outcome of the hand.

Dave, as I was writing this you replied, referencing the one player (the rule actually says one player, not one man) to a hand rule. While I understand your reference, I don't know that it applies here. The dealer isn't a player. Their job is to facilitate the game. IMO, the dealer is in charge of the muck pile. There's nothing that says that a card thrown towards the muck is different than a player mucking their card towards the center of the table so, if a dealer wants to prevent a player from mucking their hand, I don't see a problem with it. According to the rules, at least... I would be upset if I was the player with A-2, but I wouldn't argue with the way it went down.

BillM16

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2017, 08:32:37 PM »
In your opinion, should the dealer ... and therefore "helping" him win the pot.

Brooks, your question goes both ways.  Should the dealer help Player A (with the losing hand) by mucking Player B's second card?  Or, should the dealer help Player B (with the winning hand) by giving him an opportunity to table his second card?

What would have happened if the dealer did neither and simply stopped the action to call the floor for a ruling on the fate of Player B's second card?  Let's look at Rule #13, part B.

"If a player does not fully table his cards, then mucks thinking he has won, he does so at his risk. If the cards are not 100% identifiable and the TD rules the hand was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot."

Assuming his second card was 100% identifiable, as the TD, I would allow him to table the card properly, per Rule #14: 

"Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable."

In my experience, stating clarification on the rule requiring the player to show both of his hole cards for a winning hand is not an unusual occurrence for dealers.

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 06:04:19 AM by BillM16 »

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2017, 07:23:11 AM »
Hello folks,

Thank you for your answers.
I was the dealer on that one, and I wanted to know if my reaction to prevent the second card from being mucked was the right thing to do.
In fact, I thought about "Dealer can't kill an obvious winning hand" but after blocking the card I remember what was missing in my memory : "Properly tabled"

So my mind took position between these two factors, and decided to give back the card since it would have make no sense to award the pot to an Ace high card since everyone the saw CO had at least a pair of Kings.
But yes, Bill is right when he says dealer should have call for the floor right after blocking the card.

For information, Floor decided to award the pot to the pair of Kings.


The dealer should NOT interfere with the path of the mucked card. To do so violates the one man to a hand rule.

Here's what I would do:

IF the card hits the muck, but is reasonably identifiable, or if it doesn't hit the muck, the dealer should put a finger on the card and call the floor, telling the floor, "I *THINK* this is the second card."

The CO player should then be required to announce the value of the card - rank and suit. Then turn over the card in question. If the card is correctly identified, give him the pot. Otherwise, give it to the SB.

If it got mixed into the muck, too bad. Give it to the SB.

I cant fully agree on the fact dealer should not interfere since we are always asking player to show their full hole cards at showdown in both Texas and Omaha. The reason I can not fully agree is I am asking myself if the fact to ask the full hole cards is Player assisting or regular procedure.

Nick C

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2017, 08:14:43 AM »
Boris,

 I have to agree with everything you did. As long as you (the dealer) did not turn over the card. If the card were irretrievably mucked, then it could have a different result. The reason being, there could have been more than one card tossed into the muck. Beyond that, it would be very difficult to punish the rightful winner by awarding the pot to the worst hand. :(

 There are many times that the experience of a player must be taken into consideration. Novice players should have a little more "protection" than a seasoned player. A simple warning, one time, should be enough to educate a player to the rules of the game. After that initial warning, making the same mistake could have a very different and unfavorable outcome.

Dave Miller

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2017, 11:12:55 AM »
What criteria are used to decide if a player is a novice or experienced?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2017, 02:59:36 PM »
Dave,

 What criteria? About two minutes of observation!

Dave Miller

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2017, 03:56:58 PM »
Really?
In two minutes of dealing to a full table, you can tell whether or not each player is aware of all the lesser known rules of the game?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BROOKS

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2017, 04:53:51 PM »
I do not agree. I don't think you should make different decisions based on whether you think it's a newer or more experienced player. That doesn't seem fair.
Players are responsible for knowing the rules. How did we all learn? Most likely by breaking the rules when we first started playing.
In a home game, yes, the newbs are given warnings and "it's ok he didn't know"; but definitely not in a casino or poker room where it's not just a bunch of your buddies.
Rules are there to keep it fair for everyone. If an uneducated player opens one card on showdown and throws the other one into the muck, that is his error and one he will probably never make again once he sees the pot going to the other player.
The dealer should not interfere and stop that card from going in the muck.
How is that any different from the dealer seeing a players hand in seat 1 or 10 and the player is about to muck the winner. Should the dealer stop him and say wait you have a flush! No. The dealer cannot help him. He must play his hand on his own. Stopping that card from going into the muck is helping him.

Nick C

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2017, 06:00:41 PM »
Brooks,
You wrote:
Rules are there to keep it fair for everyone. If an uneducated player opens one card on showdown and throws the other one into the muck, that is his error and one he will probably never make again once he sees the pot going to the other player.
The dealer should not interfere and stop that card from going in the muck. I disagree if it were a situation that was explained in the original post.
How is that any different from the dealer seeing a players hand in seat 1 or 10 and the player is about to muck the winner. It's different because neither card was tabled. Should the dealer stop him and say wait you have a flush! No. The dealer cannot help him. He must play his hand on his own. Stopping that card from going into the muck is helping him.

The following can be found in Robert's Rules:
The same action may have a different meaning, depending on who does it, so the possible intent of an offender will be taken into consideration. Some factors here are the personís amount of poker experience and past record.
 

The following is from the LVH POKER RULE BOOK:
The proper dealer procedure for a hand being shown down is to call attention to any card(s) that are still facedown so the player may turn them up if he wishes. However, the turning up of one or more facedown cards by the dealer or another player in a hand that is partially faceup cannot deprive a player with the best hand from winning the pot.
 
The following is from Chuck Ferry's Rules of Poker:
                              Factors Influencing Decisions:
An inexperienced player should be given leeway that a more experienced and knowledgeable player would not.
 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 06:01:55 PM by Nick C »

BROOKS

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Re: Single card tabled at showdown
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2017, 02:22:04 AM »
Thank you Nick. Roberts Rules I've read. Chuck Ferry Rules I have heard of, but I am not familiar with LVH Poker Rule Book.
I am the type of person that likes (needs) to know everything, so I appreciate the feedback.
I've got some reading to do....