Author Topic: How do blind bets affect substantial action?  (Read 893 times)

BROOKS

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How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« on: March 22, 2017, 02:04:31 PM »
Ok so weird situation, thought I'd get some of your opinions.

Limit cash game, betting is capped blind, before any cards are pitched. So sb, bb, raise, raise, raise, raise (cap)
During the pitch, on the second pass, you realize the puck is in the wrong spot, wasn't moved after last hand.
You're not even done pitching, normally you stop pitching and call a misdeal and correct the puck because there hasn't been any action.
In this situation, are you considering all those blind raises as action? Technically it is substantial action, but when does action become action? I mean the pitch wasn't even complete.

Your thoughts.....
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 02:12:15 PM by MikeB »

Uniden32

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Re: When does "action" count as action
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2017, 11:42:53 AM »
None of those actions are considered actions until the last card is pitched.
Ralph Brandt
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Nick C

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How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2017, 06:04:15 PM »
Brooks,

 I don't quite understand. You said: "During the pitch, on the second pass, you realized the puck was in the wrong spot...."

 If the error were noticed before any player received his complete starting hand, I would stop the deal, correct the button, and deal over. Once any player has his complete starting hand, I'm not sure if it would be that easy to correct the mistake. Therefore, I would probably continue dealing and let the hand playout.

 There are rules written that "force" blind bettors to suffer the consequences of their actions. i,e, raising blind and then realizing that you have three hole cards instead of two. Your hand is dead! I will handle this in a similar fashion.

 You might be able to convince me to handle the situation differently if it were a tournament, but for now, in a cash game I'm sticking to my answer.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 02:12:47 PM by MikeB »

BROOKS

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Re: When does "action" count as action
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2017, 07:18:27 AM »
None of those actions are considered actions until the last card is pitched.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Because before the puck receives their last card you could very well already have substantial action. Not talking blind bets, just something as simple as fold fold, fold, or call, fold, or fold, call, or raise, fold.
UTG could look at his 1st card, see an ace and shove cuz he's short stack, as soon as the next person folds you have substantial action and that could happen before the puck receives their last card.
So I don't think you can say that substantial action can only occur after the last card is dealt.


Nick C

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Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2017, 07:47:20 AM »
Brooks,

 I did not say that. I said I consider substantial action as long as "any single player" has received his complete hand ( Two down cards in hold'em or four in omaha). The Blinds are irrelevant, it's the action (in turn) that followed...in my opinion, it makes no difference when the raise occurs, or whether the player looked at his cards or not.

 If the button error were discovered before the second card were dealt to the SB I would correct the button and redeal. Beyond that, play should continue.

BROOKS

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Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2017, 04:54:11 PM »
Nick - I'm not saying you  said that
There is quoted text in my reply, from Uniden. That is what I was replying to.

Nick C

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Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 05:28:54 AM »
Brooks,

 Sorry for the confusion. I guess I'm trying to figure out exactly what Uniden means when he said: "None of these actions are actions until the last card is pitched."

 There are rules that govern "action in turn" I'm not familiar with any rule that instructs us to wait until the last card is dealt or that tells us we have to look at our cards before betting.

 I believe, if you act in turn and that action is followed by "substantial action," the hand should proceed.

 Calling a "misdeal" has always been a "last resort" and should be avoided whenever possible. So, my vote goes for correcting the error of the misplaced button before any player has received a complete hand. This way you don't hear any complaining from the guy that was dealt pocket kings only to have you try to take them away from him! Good luck with that one. :D

Uniden32

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Re: When does "action" count as action
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2017, 07:17:02 AM »
So I don't think you can say that substantial action can only occur after the last card is dealt.

You can't have substantial action before the last card is pitched, any actions occurring before the pitch is complete would be considered action out of turn.
Ralph Brandt
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Nick C

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Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2017, 08:50:48 AM »
Ralph,

 Is that written anywhere? Don't believe I've ever seen that before you mentioned it. I recall many times when action began following the blinds and it was discovered that the button only had one card. The ruling was: as long as it is discovered before the dealer burns and turns the flop, the button is entitled to the top card of the deck...his "proper card." This, of course, would precede his betting.

Max D

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Re: When does "action" count as action
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 11:17:50 AM »
So I don't think you can say that substantial action can only occur after the last card is dealt.

You can't have substantial action before the last card is pitched, any actions occurring before the pitch is complete would be considered action out of turn.
This is not in TDA, as soon as player received their second card they can act in turn, I dont remember seeing a case where the player as to wait for the other players to get their second card.
Max D

Uniden32

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Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2017, 08:16:50 AM »
Max and Nick,

It's not written anywhere, for me it's just common sense that we'd want the players to wait until the last card is dealt, otherwise the dealers would have a really hard time following the action while they were pitching.

And with a lot of rules, I don't believe this is something that would be required to be written in any rules set as it would come up so infrequently, and for me, two players rushing to act before the pitch is completed isn't going to stop me from declaring a misdeal when a misdeal is the correct call.


Ralph Brandt
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Nick C

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Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2017, 08:39:06 AM »
Ralph,

 How would you feel about players betting before the last card is dealt, but it's not a misdeal situation? Normal deal; UTG calls blind, UTG+1 raises, before the last card is dealt to the button. Are you going to allow UTG or UTG+1 to retract their bets? Of course you're not...what's the difference? Substantial action has occurred.

Uniden32

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Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2017, 09:04:06 AM »
How would you feel about players betting before the last card is dealt, but it's not a misdeal situation? Normal deal; UTG calls blind, UTG+1 raises, before the last card is dealt to the button. Are you going to allow UTG or UTG+1 to retract their bets? Of course you're not...what's the difference? Substantial action has occurred.

If it's not a misdeal situation, the question isn't about substantial action, but about the bets being binding.  Yes, I'm making the actions binding, the same as someone stating, "I'm checking in the dark."
Ralph Brandt
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Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
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