Author Topic: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand  (Read 1258 times)

The Riddler

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 22
Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« on: March 18, 2017, 09:13:46 PM »
Hi everybody,

Tournament with 6 players left,
Blinds 2.500/5.000/500

UTG player is all in with 55.000 chips, next 2 players folded, button ( position 9)
is all in with 35.000 chips but dealer muckes accidentaly his hand. Button player claims to have AK but can not describe both cards
exactly so cards are mucked.
Will he now lose all his chips without cards?..he didnt even made mistake, dealer killed his hand.

What is the rule?

Thank you very much


Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 06:41:30 AM »
Riddler,

 This is one of the most unfortunate occurrences in poker. Players must protect their own hands.
TDA GENERAL CONCEPTS (#2 Players Responsibilities)....POTS/SHOWDOWN (#13 B Tabling Cards and Killing Winning Hand)....PLAY/OTHER (#60 Accidently Killed/Fouled Hands) These will fully explain your situation.

In your situation, because his opponent had the Button covered, he will be eliminated from the contest.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 06:45:07 AM by Nick C »

The Riddler

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 22
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 08:13:09 AM »
Thank you Nick,

i read the rules and yes we need them.

The problem is we take the chips from a player who didnīt made a mistake..the dealer did it and he belongs to the card room.
but we punish the player who is maybe in day 3,4 or 5 of the tournament playing 10-12 hours/day.

The other side of the problem is that i think is unfair to take the whole chips from a player without cards. And the cards where mucked by a dealer mistake.
maybe paying the last raise/bet would be a fair decision but the whole chips/existance of a player is unfair and non competitive.

maybe a ruling like in case Baumann/Koroknai or Estelle Denis would be a fair decision.


Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 08:47:14 AM »
Riddler,

 Players really need to protect their cards. As far as the decisions made regarding your mentioned Baumann/Koroknai or Estelle Denis fiascos, in my opinion they were two of the worst floor decisions ever recorded! They are perfect examples of what the floor should never rule.

 To all poker players: Hold onto your cards until the hand is decided...that's it!

The Riddler

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 22
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 11:05:02 AM »
Thanks again Nick,

yes, agree player have to protect the cards

What would you decide in the Baumann/Koroknai and Estelle Denis cases?

GreggPath

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2017, 11:56:51 AM »
Can someone tell me about the Baumann/Koroknai and Estelle Denis cases? I've never heard of them.

The Riddler

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 22

GreggPath

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2017, 12:50:53 PM »
Wow... I would be pissed if I were in that situation (not as the player with dead cards... as the player who should get all those chips from the all-in). Yes, rule 89 says that they can get back the raise, but rule 55 is specific to the situation and says they are SOL. Bad ruling! (which seems to be the consensus here).

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2017, 03:45:44 PM »
Hey Gregg...We agree!!!! ;D I can't tell you how happy I am that there are others that don't always agree with the floor decision...no matter how prominent and respected the floor. We all make mistakes (not many), but there were a few calls I've made that I wished I could have back. They were both "horrible" calls and if you're not familiar with the complete story, I suggest you look them up...both of them.

Lengthy discussions can be found in the TDA archives. Definitely worth looking up. Instead of trying to defend their errors, they would have gained more credibility if they just admitted...they blew the calls. ::)

Uniden32

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Tournament Director at the Isle Casino
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 07:35:16 AM »
Riddler,

Couple of questions regarding your situation.

  • Did the Small Blind and Big Blind fold prior to the discovery that the hand was mucked ?, or did the player say All-in, and the dealer muck his hand then before any subsequent action ?

  • Assuming the SB and BB folded prior, was the discovery prior to the flop/turn/river ?
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 11:02:55 AM »
Gregg,

 If you really want to get an idea how bad Baumann got screwed...consider the fact that the next day, she was eliminated from the WSOP by...you guessed it...Koroknai!!!!

 If that's not bad enough, take a look at the final table players for 2012.


The Riddler

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 22
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 03:52:07 PM »
Hi Uniden,


Seat 1, sb
seat 2, bb
seat 3 utg, all in 55k
seat 5, fold
seat 7, fold
seat 9, all in 35k

the dealer mistake was seein instantly by everyone just the dealer was so quick we couldnīt even say one word and the cards were gone :-)

thank you


Interesting to Gaelle Baumann is that she called the decision fair

 "Now, a year later, I think it was fair. Even though it may have been fair it was still tough to live through.”

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 05:41:30 PM »
The Riddler,

 The Baumann/Koroknai was in 2012. The decision was not fair then, and it should be a landmark example of what not to do...as a player or as the floor!

The Riddler

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 22
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2017, 03:32:19 AM »
Hi everybody,

let me answer this way...

YOU want to travel from A to B with the train.
YOU buy a ticket. Time later somebody stole your ticket and few minutes later youre asked what are YOU doing on this train?!
YOU say i travel from A to B and I pay for it. Wehre is YOUr ticket? Well, it was here but somebody took it away.
Why did YOU not protect YOUr ticket all the time. I did, but...

So YOU will dropped out of the train by 100 miles/hour..thank YOU

Nice rule and fair to everybody..take YOUr seat please

Uniden32

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Tournament Director at the Isle Casino
Re: Call all in-dealer killed the calling hand
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2017, 11:40:15 AM »
Riddler,

Please don't get frustrated, there are a lot of TDs (or TD wannabees) who are going to rule by the strict letter of the law without considering what would be best for the game.

Fact is, I'm not eliminating a player from the tournament due to a dealer error if it can be avoided.

In this scenario, as you describe it, my ruling would be to give the player back his 35k in chips as no player has acted on his "All-in".

Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32