Author Topic: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB  (Read 1287 times)

Nick C

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2017, 06:50:23 PM »
Honestly, I don't like TDA rules that pertain to this situation. TDA #30 At the Table With Action Pending contradicts #29 At Your Seat.  #30 Players with live hands must remain at the table! In your example both blinds were absent. #29 says "within reach of your chair." Is he at his seat? As a dealer, could you really reach out and kill his hand, if he's standing there?

 It's a once in a thousand hand occurrence that needs more clarification. You want to give the pot to the Button... I can live with your ruling, but I still don't like it! ;D

MikeB

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 10:19:04 PM »

My only question would be does this logic also follow that (in a completely different scenario, all players present) if the action is on the BB and there has been no raise and the BB (forgetting he is BB with chips in the pot) says "Fold" but doesn't muck his hand, he does not need to fold? Since fold wasn't an option to him.
Hi Gregg: As to your original scenario, IMO the button gets the blinds because the SB and BB hands are dead because they weren't there for LCOTD on the initial deal (correct?). If in the unlikely event they were both there for LCOTD but then both got up and left immediately after as the blind bet was going around, then they would both technically have live cards.... and if neither returned, ultimately the SB would first be out leaving the blinds to the BB IMO.

But to your question on the second scenario quoted above, if there's no raise to the BB and when action returns to the BB and he/she says fold, that's a binding fold per TDA 2015 Rule 53 "Non Standard Folds". While fold isn't a reasonable option, players can always inexplicably decide to toss their cards or otherwise abandon their hand. The history of Rule 53 actually dates to exactly the situation you speak of, where a player facing a check inexplicably says "Fold". Dave Lamb had alot of input on writing this and IMO he's just the genius of functional tournament poker rules. Of course Rule 53 and all others will be reviewed at the 2017 Summit, hope to see you there!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 10:22:18 PM by MikeB »

GreggPath

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2017, 04:15:50 AM »
Hi Gregg: As to your original scenario, IMO the button gets the blinds because the SB and BB hands are dead because they weren't there for LCOTD on the initial deal (correct?). If in the unlikely event they were both there for LCOTD but then both got up and left immediately after as the blind bet was going around, then they would both technically have live cards.... and if neither returned, ultimately the SB would first be out leaving the blinds to the BB IMO.

Yes, I believe we're on the same page here. Pot goes to the last person with live cards. In your first scenario, button has the only live cards when action reaches him. In the second scenario, BB and SB are not killed at the conclusion of the deal so BB has the only live cards and receives the pot.

But to your question on the second scenario quoted above, if there's no raise to the BB and when action returns to the BB and he/she says fold, that's a binding fold per TDA 2015 Rule 53 "Non Standard Folds". While fold isn't a reasonable option, players can always inexplicably decide to toss their cards or otherwise abandon their hand. The history of Rule 53 actually dates to exactly the situation you speak of, where a player facing a check inexplicably says "Fold". Dave Lamb had alot of input on writing this and IMO he's just the genius of functional tournament poker rules. Of course Rule 53 and all others will be reviewed at the 2017 Summit, hope to see you there!

This makes sense. I forgot about Rule 53.

I won't be able to attend the 2017 Summit (unless, of course, the TDA would like to pay my way  ;D) but I'm fine with Rule 53.

Nick C

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2017, 07:04:53 AM »
As far as rule #53 goes. The only part I agree with is the enforcement of a penalty...a severe penalty! Could never accept any reason for players to "fold" when not facing a bet. :o The only logical reasoning raises suspicion of chip dumping and/or collusion. Head to head action would be the acceptable exception.

Dave Miller

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 11:57:40 AM »
Interesting. Based on Robert's Rules, if there are only limpers, and no raises or post-flop bets, the BB can show up at the showdown and win the hand.

Unfortunately, under TDA rules, an absent player's cards are mucked before the action begins with the UTG.

Therefore, unless the button folds out of turn, he will be the last player holding live cards, and should be awarded the pot.
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