Author Topic: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB  (Read 1290 times)

GreggPath

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Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« on: March 13, 2017, 06:46:06 AM »
This is a question I could probably easily answer by checking the rulebook, but since the board has been so quiet lately, I thought I'd just post it instead.

SB and BB are both 25 (probably a unnecessary factoid). SB and BB are both away from table. Everyone folds. SB and BB cards were killed following the deal. Does the button win the pot, even if he mucked his cards (not realizing the pot was his)?

BillM16

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 06:56:33 AM »
Good morning Gregg,

IMO, yes the last player with a live hand wins.  In this case, the Button wins.  Here again, IMO, if in this scenario the button had folded out-of-turn (OOT), it would be a binding fold and the player in the cut-off position would win.

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 06:57:52 AM by BillM16 »

Steff0111

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2017, 07:45:05 AM »
Totally agree with Bill!

Nick C

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2017, 11:20:44 AM »
I don't know about giving the pot to the button. I'd rather leave it in the center for the next hand. Somehow giving the pot to a player that voluntarily folded (the button), seems worse than playing it out between the two absent blinds! In the original question, the Button folded. He did not even call the blind...how can he get the pot? :o Sorry, I don't agree.

 If the Button called...then I can justify awarding him the pot. Anyway, that's how I see it.

GreggPath

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2017, 01:43:30 PM »
I don't know about giving the pot to the button. I'd rather leave it in the center for the next hand. Somehow giving the pot to a player that voluntarily folded (the button), seems worse than playing it out between the two absent blinds! In the original question, the Button folded. He did not even call the blind...how can he get the pot? :o Sorry, I don't agree.

 If the Button called...then I can justify awarding him the pot. Anyway, that's how I see it.

Actually I can justify it... and I think I answer my original question definitively (imo) in doing so...

The big blind button does not have the option to fold in this situation (assuming he hadn't folded OOT). All other hands are dead (BB and SB are dead when the last card is dealt). He wins the hand when action arrives to him uncontested. He does not have an obligation to show his cards so the pot is his. His fold was moot.

My only question would be does this logic also follow that (in a completely different scenario, all players present) if the action is on the BB and there has been no raise and the BB (forgetting he is BB with chips in the pot) says "Fold" but doesn't muck his hand, he does not need to fold? Since fold wasn't an option to him.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 06:56:01 AM by GreggPath »

Nick C

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 01:49:36 PM »
Gregg,

 Sorry, you're losing me. I thought the question pertained to the Button? I can understand awarding the pot to the BB because he at least had chips in the pot. I must be missing something. We can't possibly disagree on everything...could we?

Dave Miller

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 07:36:39 PM »
 Absolutely, it goes to the button. After all, the button is the last player holding live cards. That's the key. He's got live cards.  The big blind's hand was mucked, so he doesn't have a live hand.

 The button folding out of turn is a consideration, and in that event, it goes to the cut off.



 For what it's worth, this happened to me, back in the day before I started to learn about the rules. About 10 years ago, I was at the Showboat, and after break, I was the button and both blinds were missing and everyone folded to me. As I did a quick look to see if anyone called, so I can jokingly announce all in, the dealer beat me to it, pushing the pot to me.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 07:57:11 PM »
Dave,

 Your action at the Showboat confirmed what I said about the Button playing the hand. I say the Button must at least call the blind before being awarded the pot.

GreggPath

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2017, 06:54:52 AM »
Dave,

 Your action at the Showboat confirmed what I said about the Button playing the hand. I say the Button must at least call the blind before being awarded the pot.

I apologize, I meant the button in my last post, not BB... I'll edit it to make sense. If no one but the button has cards, then the button wins the hand at the exact moment that the player before him folds. He isn't even allowed to call. The hand is over before he can even do so. Does the BB have to check to win a hand that is folded to him pre-flop? Of course not. He wins the hand when SB folds.

GreggPath

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2017, 06:57:31 AM »
Gregg,

 Sorry, you're losing me. I thought the question pertained to the Button? I can understand awarding the pot to the BB because he at least had chips in the pot. I must be missing something. We can't possibly disagree on everything...could we?

I don't think having chips in the pot is the relevant point. Having live cards is what matters. The button is the only player with live cards. You can't win a hand without live cards so you can't award it to the BB.

Nick C

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2017, 11:16:01 AM »
Have nothing more to add to my earlier posts. I doubt that we'll have to worry about a situation where both blinds would be absent and everyone folds to the Button...but, who knows? If it happens at my table , in your casino, at least I know how you'll handle it. :D

Max D

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2017, 11:56:39 AM »
The topic went from unclear to really clear in that discussion, it makes sense and I will know how to handle this going forward.  I could see this happen when people comea back from a break and not everybody is back...
Max D

GreggPath

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 12:04:37 PM »
Have nothing more to add to my earlier posts. I doubt that we'll have to worry about a situation where both blinds would be absent and everyone folds to the Button...but, who knows? If it happens at my table , in your casino, at least I know how you'll handle it. :D

Do you not agree that the pot goes to the button? Even though the blinds no longer have cards and the button can not fold since the hand is over when the action reaches him?

Nick C

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 03:40:41 PM »
Max.

 My theory is based on the old rule that can still be found in Robert's Rules:

 In tournament play, there are two ways the hand of an absent player may be treated. Our rule #11 in “Section 15 - Tournaments,” is: “If you are not present when it becomes your turn to act, your hand is dead. This includes situations in which a live blind is not present to act, since an absent player cannot exercise the option to raise.” This speeds up play, and also prevents a player from facing situations like thinking he is moving all-in heads-up against a short stack and an absent player comes back to the table to enter the pot. The alternative is: “If a player is absent, the hand shall not be killed until that seat faces a wager. An absent player’s hand is dead at the showdown.” This rule gives the absent player the maximum amount of time to return and be able to play the hand.

 This alternate would force the Button to act before awarding him the pot. That's it...and I prefer it.

GreggPath

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Re: Everyone folds to absent SB and BB
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2017, 05:51:46 PM »
Max.

 My theory is based on the old rule that can still be found in Robert's Rules:

 In tournament play, there are two ways the hand of an absent player may be treated. Our rule #11 in “Section 15 - Tournaments,” is: “If you are not present when it becomes your turn to act, your hand is dead. This includes situations in which a live blind is not present to act, since an absent player cannot exercise the option to raise.” This speeds up play, and also prevents a player from facing situations like thinking he is moving all-in heads-up against a short stack and an absent player comes back to the table to enter the pot. The alternative is: “If a player is absent, the hand shall not be killed until that seat faces a wager. An absent player’s hand is dead at the showdown.” This rule gives the absent player the maximum amount of time to return and be able to play the hand.

 This alternate would force the Button to act before awarding him the pot. That's it...and I prefer it.

That may be true, but that's not the rulebook in question. My question is in regards to the TDA rulebook. Do you agree with awarding the pot to the button as it pertains to the rulebook we're referring to?