Author Topic: Exposed Cards w/ Action pending:Dead Hand, Penalty, did I make the right call?  (Read 806 times)

Buddymax

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Situation:  Play is at the river.  Two players remain in the hand.  River has been tabled. Player A is first to act and is debating with himself.  His explanation later... He shows his hole cards to Player B.  Another player at the table calls for a ruling by the dealer.  Action was stopped.  Dealer is a volunteer and is not familiar with the situation.  I am called as TD.  Player A has not bet, or checked, but has turned his cards back over to hide from Player B.  Player B has not acted.    Explanation given to me by Player A for showing his cards to Player B.... " I wanted to show him my cards so I could get a read on him.  Would he call a bet, fold to a bet, or should I just check?"

Ruling by me as TD: 
Player A has indicated a check by revealing his cards. Player A hand is not dead at this time. 
Player B has the right to Check, Bet or Fold.
Player A was advised that he cannot reveal his cards and expect to continue unless a bet is made by Player B.

Player A was given a warning that if he revealed his cards again during play he would be given a one circuit penalty, A third infraction would incur a full level penalty. (20 Minutes)  A fourth infraction would result in disqualification.

I checked the TDA Rules but could not find anything to cover this scenario.  Is there? and if yes, where?  If no, some guidance would be appreciated. 

This is a charity tournament with currency prizes.   I am a Volunteer for the Charity but have been TDA member for a few years.

  Thanks  Ron
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 04:28:22 PM by MikeB »

MikeB

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Hi Ron:

Thanks for the great case. This is very non-standard play on A's behalf, so ultimately Rule 1 applies. Whatever you rule is his problem, not yours.

That said, Rule 63 applies here IMO: Cards exposed with action pending will not be dead, but such exposure may be subject to penalty after the hand.

I would have Player A table his cards for all to see and play proceeds with action on him. Ultimately those cards will need to be exposed to the entire table, I would just do it here. Definitely would give penalty afterwards... at least 2 hands for first offense considering how flagrantly deliberate it was.

I wouldn't consider the card exposure to be a check though that's within your authority under Rule 1

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 04:29:07 PM by MikeB »

Buddymax

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Hi Mike!  Thank you for the quick reply.  I appreciate your candor on my actions. 
As I noted,  this is a charity event where most players are recreational players, and the other players at the table were concerned about his flagrant display of his cards with action pending.  I felt that by forcing the check it would then be up to him to decide if he wanted to fold if Player B bet out.  I felt that was penalty enough at the time for his actions.  But I also warned him and others at the table that this would not be allowed in the future. 

As a charity event,  I think he was just trying to push my buttons (new player to our events) as well as intimidate the other players at the table with his conversation.  You had to be there to hear the tone of voice and sarcasm.  By advising of future penalties he realized I would not be a pushover.  As I have done at past events, before our next tourney starts I will advise all players of the prior situation and that action of this kind will result in an immediate penalty of two hands and higher for continued rule breaking.

Thank you for pointing out Rule 63.  I must have missed that going though all the others trying to find it.

I have directed 26 tourneys for this group in the past and as we have over 750 player/contacts I will advise all players of the this situation and results by e-mail before the next event.

Thank you for you time and your advise.  I really appreciate the opportunity to run these types of questions by  the "pros" at POKERTDA to better my skills at Tournament Direction and play.

Max D

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I agree with Mike using rule 63 (the hand cannot be killed) but warning player.  If it was the first time he did it, I would have done like you, warn him and keep a close eye on him, especially if he had a tendency to "bully" player during a charity event when everybody wants to have fun.
As you said it is important for the players to understand that there is a TA to facilitate issue and to make sure that the game is well run in a fair fashion.
Max D

Buddymax

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Thanks Mike!
I have adjusted our rules to take this type of situation into consideration.  Because it is a charity event I don't want to get too heavy handed but I also want to make sure that all the players feel comfortable and happy to come back.   
Ron

Nick C

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I agree with everyone. ;) I would like to add a little food for thought. I know it was a charity event but are you sure player A wasn't trying to take a cheap shot? I've seen players do this only to have Player B surrender their hand! Maybe there was a method to his madness. ;D

Penalty for sure.

Buddymax

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Hi Nick!  I think that is exactly what he was trying to do.  Player A seemed to be a seasoned player before attending our event, although new to our game.  Player B was a novice/recreational player who may have been intimidated easily into making a mistake. Luckily another player called Player A on it before play continued.  Now that I have run into this situation and know the proper rules we have adjusted our house rules for this eventuality and I will know how to handle it in the future.  Thanks for your feedback.  Ron (Buddymax)
 

Nick C

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Ron,

 It does help when you know your players. Back in the day, our rulings were often determined by the presumed expertise of the players involved. Situations will vary but some players should know better and were punished accordingly. Let them know you're wise to some of their moves...even when you're not quite sure. ;)