Author Topic: Chip count  (Read 1244 times)

Pietro3000

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Chip count
« on: November 26, 2016, 01:46:01 PM »
Hello guys,

In a tournament in the final table ITM the players decided to chop, is there any rule that limits the 1st place prize:

Example:

4 players left...Total prize pool $640:
1st:  $260
2nd: $165
3rd:  $120
4th:  $95

Chip count 307500 (Total):

Player A) 202205 (65.76%)
Player B) 82873  (26.95%)
Player C) 15500  ( 5.04%)
Player D) 6922   ( 2.25%)

So after chip count players should received 4th place prize $95*4 = $380 and $260 will be split by chipcount as follow:

95 + 170.97= $265.97
95 + 70.07 =  $165.07
95 + 13.11 =  $108.11
95 + 5.85 =    $100.85

In this example the 1st place is receiving + than the 1st place would received in the default PO structure, let`s say not just to they get into an agreement but that the room is force to terminate the tournament for x reason and pay by chip count thus players are claiming that the max PO cannot exceed the 1st place ($260).

Regards
Thank you, Pura Vida

Pietro3000

BillM16

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2016, 10:05:15 AM »
Hello Pietro,

The TDA has not established rules for tournament payouts.  It is very likely that payouts will remain under the rules of the individual casinos and clubs.

There are two common methods known as ICM and Chip Chop - the latter which you used.  There is also a handy app that calculates these for you.  Check out: Poker Cruncher

Here's the original prize, ICM and Chip Chop breakdown:

Chips(%)Prize ICM (%)Chip Chop(%)
1:202205(65.76%)$260$225.16(35.18%)$265.97(41.56%)
2:82873(26.95%)$165$181.42(28.35%)$165.07(25.79%)
3:15500(5.04%)$120$124.87(19.51%)$108.11(16.89%)
4:6922(2.25%)$95$108.55(16.96%)$100.85(15.76%)

As you can see, if you are the chip leader you would prefer Chip Chop.  If you are the short stack, you would prefer ICM.  Around here, the players usually start with an ICM and perhaps negotiate from there.
Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 03:11:12 PM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2016, 01:41:20 PM »
... negotiate from there.
That's the key.

No matter what formula you use, you're never gonna have all players agree to a chop that gives anyone more than what first place would have gotten if they played it out.

Similarly, you're not gonna have an agreement to chop if the last place player gets less than what he'd get if he simply lost all his chips on the next hand.
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Brian Vickers

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2016, 03:52:47 PM »
As a TD I won't allow a chop that pays 1st more than 1st. 

Uniden32

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2016, 08:39:58 AM »
As a TD, I'm only offering an ICM chop.  If the players agree to another type of chop, that's up to them.

As far as a chop where 1st place gets more than the posted 1st place, I don't care.  It's the player's money, best I'll do is point out that it's more than 1st place money.
Ralph Brandt
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Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
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BillM16

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2016, 11:08:23 AM »
I have seen chops only twice where the 1st place received more than the original prize money.  In both cases, there were several players remaining and the chip-leader had much more that 50% of the chips in play.  All other players were anxious to cash for more that last place money and to go home winners.  While I might not use this angle, I cannot fault these guys who saw a bonus opportunity and took it.

IMO, the TD's role here is merely to facilitate the process (ICM, Chip Chop, or other).  As Uniden32 says, it's up to the players to agree - unanimously.  It's not a "the majority rules" situation.  Without unanimous agreement, there is no deal and they continue to play it out.  (Thus, the opportunity for 1st place bonuses above.)  Unanimous player agreement is required for a chop is not a TDA rule, but it is quite common.

As a TD I won't allow a chop that pays 1st more than 1st.

Brian, what do you do in this situation?  The 1st place player refuses a chop unless he gets a bonus.  All others agree to give him the bonus.  Do you force the 1st place to accept the chop of force the play to continue?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 11:30:15 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2016, 01:32:54 PM »
Bill,

 This is why I suggest that management does not get involved in any "chop." It's not your duty, as a casino employee, to regulate a payout agreement that could involve conflict. I remember a group that wanted to chop, and management insisted that the tournament be played out so they could award the 1st place trophy and possible media coverage.

 If players agree to chop, that's fine. I believe the terms would be better settled between them.

Uniden32

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2016, 01:46:50 PM »
This is why I suggest that management does not get involved in any "chop."

Nick,

Some poker rooms don't allow chops, that's a management decision as the casino.  While I don't agree with it, as long as it's posted, and the players are aware, then so be it.  By giving them numbers, I'm simply giving them information.  What they decide to do with that information is up to them.

We have a competitor that won't allow chops past the final table.  I've had 18 way chops before, and as BillM16 mentioned, as long as it's unanimous, who am I to tell the players what to do with their money.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

Nick C

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2016, 02:12:36 PM »
Ralph,

 I'd say you're doing it right. My suggestion is based on a few chops that went wrong...and I don't want to get involved when there might be a misunderstanding, that's all. I know chops occur on a regular basis everywhere. As a dealer, I used to like it because we didn't have to keep dealing and it didn't effect the tips!

 If they want to chop...let them work it out at their own risk. That's my suggestion.

Pietro3000

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2016, 10:16:24 AM »
Thank you all!

In my case was that the room had to canceled the tourney due to reasons out of their control and the count ended up giving the chip leader a bigger cut, there was no time to make any corrections and players did not have the chance to get into an agreement as the TD (Not me) enforced the distribution.

Later on the players were inquiring about the official rules.

I appreciate your feedback
Thank you, Pura Vida

Pietro3000

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2016, 02:00:35 PM »
... negotiate from there.
That's the key.

No matter what formula you use, you're never gonna have all players agree to a chop that gives anyone more than what first place would have gotten if they played it out.

I'd agree with you if I hadn't actually witnessed a tournament chop where the chipleader actually received $5k more than first place paid, which was $30k. It was a limit tournament and she had 80% of the chips with 6 players left. It was 2am and everyone wanted to quit except her. She wanted to win the tournament, which would've taken something like 2-3 more hours, unless she knocked them out successively in short order. The 5 guys wanted to quit and chop the remaining monies. The TD didn't know what to do, the players didn't know what to do ( ya know, just quit and give her first place and chop the rest ) so they played on until finally they caved in and suggested more than first place. She took the deal and walked with $35k.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Chip count
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2016, 02:06:43 PM »
As a TD I won't allow a chop that pays 1st more than 1st.

Reasoning?
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