Author Topic: Extra cards found in muck  (Read 1129 times)

BROOKS

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Extra cards found in muck
« on: October 28, 2016, 02:41:46 AM »
So weird thing happened....

6 handed game, 2 players post flop. Which means 8 cards should be in the muck.
On the turn, dealer calls the floor because there are 11 cards in the muck.
All the burn cards are still in place.
Why was the muck being counted?
A player says he thinks he saw some cards fall off the stub!
You're the floor person, how do we proceed?

Nick C

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2016, 08:41:05 AM »
Hello Brooks,

 I guess the only reason anyone would count the muck is if they were certain they saw "extra cards" fall off the deck stub! How that could happen is pretty odd in itself. The fact that there was action pre-flop and post flop, I would say the hand must continue and played out to completion.

Dave Miller

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2016, 08:42:49 AM »
Count all the cards.

Assuming there are still only 52 cards on the table, the hand remains live.

If there is still a turn/river to come, restore the stub to the point where you started counting down. (Count it again to put them back in the right sequence.) I.E. Now the top cards may not be the original 'destined' turn/river, but they would be the cards used had the discrepancy not been noticed.

Do NOT try to figure out how many / which cards from the muck should be added to the stub. While the original 'destined' turn/river might be sitting on the top of the muck, you can't really be sure. Therefore, using different, unplayed cards is better than risking using cards that have been discarded. This is supported by Rule 36, regarding a shuffle of the stub when a turn or river is prematurely exposed.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 08:43:59 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Uniden32

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2016, 10:51:52 AM »
Count all the cards.

Assuming there are still only 52 cards on the table, the hand remains live.

My advice would be to simply remove the deck in question, treat as a sticky deck after the hand.  I would NEVER count a deck at the table to determine if I was going to keep the hand live, you'd just be opening yourself up to too many questions from the players.

Ralph Brandt
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Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

Nick C

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2016, 11:09:46 AM »
Yeah Ralph...I agree that removing the deck before the next hand is best. I would not agree with any re-deal or counting the stub. Finish the hand or suspend further betting...that's about it, as far as my suggested options.

Dave Miller

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2016, 12:20:05 PM »
I would NEVER count a deck at the table to determine if I was going to keep the hand live, you'd just be opening yourself up to too many questions from the players.
I'm not sure how that would open you up - unless the total wasn't 52...
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2016, 07:54:31 AM »
Dave,

 What happens when you count down the deck and realise that there are only 49 cards, or 50, or 53? Refund all bets...search the players...call security. Counting the deck is something that should be done after the hand is played out. Putting the "spotlight" on a holdout artist, or a "cheat" is not a good way to promote your cardroom.

 Check your cameras, speak with players privately and by all means insist that dealers count the deck on a regular basis. I remember an incident that occurred a few years ago, in a local casino, when cards were discovered under the table on several occasions. Management was so outraged that they insisted the dealers count the deck stub every hand! An over-kill for sure. However, a random check at least once per dealer down could be enough to discourage a devious player from holding out any cards or "ditching" a card or two knowing that his money will be refunded on a losing hand.

 Changing the deck randomly is another deterrent. Any player looking for an edge by holding an ace or two, will have a tough time using his redback aces when the blue deck is brought in for the next hand.

 Some ideas that might sent those unwanted players to another cardroom.

Dave Miller

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2016, 12:50:46 PM »
Dave,
 What happens when you count down the deck and realise that there are only 49 cards, or 50, or 53? Refund all bets...search the players...call security. Counting the deck is something that should be done after the hand is played out. Putting the "spotlight" on a holdout artist, or a "cheat" is not a good way to promote your cardroom.
What would YOU do if you found the deck had more or less than 52 cards? Play the hand out and simply put in a new deck for the next hand? Wouldn't the players want to know why they were playing with a fouled deck?

If there is an issue that would ultimately require you to unravel a hand, why wouldn't you want to stop action immediately to check if the issue exists?

"Spotlight a cheat"? Why wouldn't you? How does identifying a cheater and kicking them out of the room do anything other than make the other players more comfortable about playing there?



For the record, I deal, and act as TD, for a pub league. But we try to follow TDA/Casino rules as closely as possible.

Also, I have been at a cash table in a casino where a similar situation happened. After the hand was over, pot pushed and rake dropped, it was discovered that the cut card was in the shuffler - with a green light, and the card at the bottom of the stub was a card from the other deck. The floor called the hand dead due to a misdeal and unraveled the action, and returned the bets. Although I disagreed with the decision, I later learned that it was the correct thing to do.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 01:01:03 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Extra cards found in muck
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2016, 01:22:14 PM »
Sorry Dave, I stand by my prior post. Of course you want to "catch a cheat" but I don't agree with your method. As far as the automatic shuffler situation you described, I could agree with a misdeal but that would  depend on when it were discovered.