Author Topic: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?  (Read 1319 times)

MikeB

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Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« on: October 17, 2016, 12:11:24 PM »
Is any discussion needed on the subject of retrieving mucked cards?

The question is the subject of this thread: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1333.msg11634#msg11634

BROOKS

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2016, 01:13:35 AM »
I think it definitely should be brought up for clarification. I have been taking notes for the past couple of months as I have been reading all the posts and trying to "know everything".  This is one of the topics I have made notes on.
There was an older thread which gave me confusion:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1309.0

Does it really have to be the "dealer" that kills the hand?
Can't a player toss their cards directly into the muck themselves and therefore it's dead?
I've always lived by the rule that once cards have touched the muck face down they are dead. Regardless of how they got there,  identifiable or not. Players are responsible for protecting their cards.

Also there was another discussion here:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1268.0
Players asking to see a hand at showdown, doesn't the dealer  tapping the cards on the muck before opening,  "kill" that hand, therefore it cannot win??
There was mention of the "winning" hand asking to see another hand, and it would have to be live.
Some clarification on this would be good too

Nick C

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2016, 08:05:16 AM »
Brooks,

 To address the "would be winner" of a hand, that requests to see a loosing players hand, both hands are live. Put in another way...let's say you are facing three opponents and at showdown you are first to show...the other players request to see one of the players attempting to fold without showing. The dead hands are mucked by the dealer and the hand requested to be shown is touched to the muck, thus killing the hand, before it is turned. The ideal situation would be if the hands were properly mucked and the requested to be seen hand is tapped to the muck and the pot is awarded to the winner before it is tabled...this way (technically) there is no pot to be contested. The exception is if the winner (and only the winner) requests to see a mucked hand, he might risk loosing his pot if the owner of the other hand misread his hand and it turns out to be better than...well, the damn fool that would be counting his winnings instead of crying over his dumb decision. The moral of this story is to take any pot that the dealer is willing to push to you, and never ask to see an opponents losing hand unless you are holding an exclusive nut hand yourself!
Didn't mean to ramble on but I hope I helped you better understand the ruling.

BROOKS

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2016, 01:00:33 PM »
No I understood exactly what it meant. I just didn't know if this was real TDA standard practice.

3 players in the hand.
A opens A4 w board of KQJ102
B and C both toss cards away and A asks to see both hands.

In my world, both of these hands are tapped on the muck to kill them, so they are not in contention for the pot.
You're telling me that if B or C misread their hand/the board and has Ace rag they can now win too.
This seems to violate 1 player per hand in my opinion. They need to be able to read their hands themselves, with no help from anyone else. Their neighbour cannot say anything if they see them mucking a winning hand, because it's their responsibility to know what they have. But "we" can help him? I don't like it.
Now you want to give this guy another chance to win, after he's already thrown his hand away. If he realized himself, and grabs it before it touches the muck, that's  different, no one helped him.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 01:12:16 PM by BROOKS »

MikeB

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2016, 01:42:44 PM »
Before we go too much further on the issue of asking to see a hand: i.e., under what conditions such request might be guaranteed vs. a privlege that can be denied, vs. when the cards are live or dead....

Please understand that the position of the TDA is set forth in Rule 17: a) if you ask to see you must have possession of your cards, or have tabled them; this doesn't guarantee you'll be granted your request, but if you have mucked face down you lose any such right or privilege. b) any caller of the last aggressive bet on the final street has an inalienable right to see the hand he called (on request), all other requests are at TDs discretion.

NOW, whether cards should be tapped to the muck, whether a hand is live or not, etc. is up to house policy. There just hasn't been enough blanket agreement at the past 2-3 Summits to adopt further language on the subject.

Conventionally, more often than not if the "presumed winner" asks to see any discarded hand, and the TD grants the request, that hand is live. But that isn't a TDA Rule per se. Also, more often than not, if a "loser" asks to see a hand not tabled, and the TD grants the request that hand is dead unless it's still in the possession of the player. But there are major TDA member venues that have different rules (all exposed cards at showdown are live, for example) so there is no TDA standard on these situations.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 01:44:00 PM by MikeB »

BROOKS

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2016, 06:05:50 PM »
Thank you for the clarification Mike. Exactly the information I was looking for

Nick C

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2016, 04:41:57 PM »
Brooks,

 The question you asked; "Players asking to see a hand at showdown, doesn't the dealer  tapping the cards on the muck before opening,  "kill" that hand, therefore it cannot win??
There was mention of the "winning" hand asking to see another hand, and it would have to be live.
Some clarification on this would be good too."


 This is from Robert's Rules: . "Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins."

 I realize you were looking for the TDA rule but wouldn't the TDA rule still apply in your following situation? "In my world, both of these hands are tapped on the muck to kill them, so they are not in contention for the pot.
You're telling me that if B or C misread their hand/the board and has Ace rag they can now win too."

 
 Yes...they would win too, as long as a flush was not displayed.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2017, 12:56:27 PM »
I'm firmly against the "magic muck" principle; either cards are identifiable or they aren't.  "Tapping the muck to symbolically kill a hand" is an unnecessary step is done for no other reason than out of tradition of old card rooms.  Showing a hand that is requested is well covered by Robert's Rules and doesn't mention tapping the muck.  As far as taking cards out of the muck completely: If a dealer takes a protected hand from a player and starts to bring them into the muck, they should absolutely be recovered if we can be 100% sure of their identity.

Nick C

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2017, 01:38:41 PM »
Brian,

 What dealer would take a protected hand from a player and muck it? ???

You said: "Tapping the muck to symbolically kill a hand" is an unnecessary step is done for no other reason than out of tradition of old card rooms." It may be a tradition, but it's the best way to isolate the proper cards without releasing them.

Dave Miller

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 06:23:25 AM »
What dealer would take a protected hand from a player and muck it? ???
Seriously?
It happpens a lot, particularly to players in seat 1 or 10.


Edit: I missed the 'protected' part...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 06:24:44 AM by Dave Miller »
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BillM16

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2017, 11:24:07 AM »
What dealer would take a protected hand from a player and muck it? ???
Seriously?
It happpens a lot, particularly to players in seat 1 or 10.
Edit: I missed the 'protected' part...

I've seen a player protect his cards with their chips, then shove those chips all-in.  Afterwards, the dealer muck the all-in hand after a lot of action following around the table.  So, technically the hand was not being protected at that point.  (Another reason for all-in buttons.)

Nick C

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2017, 07:57:38 PM »
Bill,

Players must learn to hold their cards when going all-in. There are no chips left to protect the hand and seats one and ten,as you stated are most at risk.
Bill, are you saying that the all-in button is placed on the all-in hand? I don't know enough about the all-in button, so I can't speak about it with any knowledge. It sounded very interesting when I first heard about it a few years ago but I had questions that remain unanswered.

BillM16

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 11:09:10 AM »
Hey Nick,

I have seen players use an all-in button as a card protector.  However, I have also seen dealers that will take a single all-in button from the first all-in player and move it to a second all-in player, especially if the second is for more chips.  I don't know of anyone using multiple all-in buttons and I don't know if anyone has recommended dealer procedures for all-in buttons.

Regards,
B~

Nick C

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2017, 12:16:41 PM »
Yes Bill, I agree. This is what I was referring to. Do the dealers or the players control the all-in button? If so, are there more than one at each table? I kind of like the idea of a single all-in button for each player that would be used as a card protector when a player goes all-in. I'm sure that's not the way it's currently handled but it might be worth looking into.

 I remember prior discussions and I believe the dealer had the responsibility of the all-in button. I had a few concerns that were not addressed.


Brian Vickers

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Re: Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2017, 12:33:41 PM »
Hey Nick,

I have seen players use an all-in button as a card protector.  However, I have also seen dealers that will take a single all-in button from the first all-in player and move it to a second all-in player, especially if the second is for more chips.  I don't know of anyone using multiple all-in buttons and I don't know if anyone has recommended dealer procedures for all-in buttons.

Regards,
B~

My room has 3 All-in Buttons on each table.  Each All-in Button is double sided; A Red "All-in" side and a Blue "Call" side.  First player moves All-in, dealer puts the button out.  Next player calls and leaves himself chips behind, Dealer puts out button with Call side up so players behind him know he is only calling the previous All-in and isn't All-in himself.

These buttons are BIG.  They are about the size of a cup-holder in diameter (3").  This size is perfect because it is just large enough to fit in the well of a standard table rack but still allow the lid to be closed on top of it when the game is closed.  It is also large enough that players all over the table can read it and it is color coded so that it sticks out what the action is even if you can't read it. 

These aren't for sale anywhere.  My company has a sign maker so facilities team made them all and then used glue to stick both sides together but they are awesome and look very professional.  Players love them because they always know what the action is and surveillance loves them because it makes it more obvious to them when all the chips don't go in play.