POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Suggestions for New TDA rules and amendments to existing rules READ-ONLY ARCHIVES Pre 2017 Summit

Retrieving mucked cards: under what circumstances?

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MikeB:
Is any discussion needed on the subject of retrieving mucked cards?

The question is the subject of this thread: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1333.msg11634#msg11634

BROOKS:
I think it definitely should be brought up for clarification. I have been taking notes for the past couple of months as I have been reading all the posts and trying to "know everything".  This is one of the topics I have made notes on.
There was an older thread which gave me confusion:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1309.0

Does it really have to be the "dealer" that kills the hand?
Can't a player toss their cards directly into the muck themselves and therefore it's dead?
I've always lived by the rule that once cards have touched the muck face down they are dead. Regardless of how they got there,  identifiable or not. Players are responsible for protecting their cards.

Also there was another discussion here:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1268.0
Players asking to see a hand at showdown, doesn't the dealer  tapping the cards on the muck before opening,  "kill" that hand, therefore it cannot win??
There was mention of the "winning" hand asking to see another hand, and it would have to be live.
Some clarification on this would be good too

Nick C:
Brooks,

 To address the "would be winner" of a hand, that requests to see a loosing players hand, both hands are live. Put in another way...let's say you are facing three opponents and at showdown you are first to show...the other players request to see one of the players attempting to fold without showing. The dead hands are mucked by the dealer and the hand requested to be shown is touched to the muck, thus killing the hand, before it is turned. The ideal situation would be if the hands were properly mucked and the requested to be seen hand is tapped to the muck and the pot is awarded to the winner before it is tabled...this way (technically) there is no pot to be contested. The exception is if the winner (and only the winner) requests to see a mucked hand, he might risk loosing his pot if the owner of the other hand misread his hand and it turns out to be better than...well, the damn fool that would be counting his winnings instead of crying over his dumb decision. The moral of this story is to take any pot that the dealer is willing to push to you, and never ask to see an opponents losing hand unless you are holding an exclusive nut hand yourself!
Didn't mean to ramble on but I hope I helped you better understand the ruling.

BROOKS:
No I understood exactly what it meant. I just didn't know if this was real TDA standard practice.

3 players in the hand.
A opens A4 w board of KQJ102
B and C both toss cards away and A asks to see both hands.

In my world, both of these hands are tapped on the muck to kill them, so they are not in contention for the pot.
You're telling me that if B or C misread their hand/the board and has Ace rag they can now win too.
This seems to violate 1 player per hand in my opinion. They need to be able to read their hands themselves, with no help from anyone else. Their neighbour cannot say anything if they see them mucking a winning hand, because it's their responsibility to know what they have. But "we" can help him? I don't like it.
Now you want to give this guy another chance to win, after he's already thrown his hand away. If he realized himself, and grabs it before it touches the muck, that's  different, no one helped him.

MikeB:
Before we go too much further on the issue of asking to see a hand: i.e., under what conditions such request might be guaranteed vs. a privlege that can be denied, vs. when the cards are live or dead....

Please understand that the position of the TDA is set forth in Rule 17: a) if you ask to see you must have possession of your cards, or have tabled them; this doesn't guarantee you'll be granted your request, but if you have mucked face down you lose any such right or privilege. b) any caller of the last aggressive bet on the final street has an inalienable right to see the hand he called (on request), all other requests are at TDs discretion.

NOW, whether cards should be tapped to the muck, whether a hand is live or not, etc. is up to house policy. There just hasn't been enough blanket agreement at the past 2-3 Summits to adopt further language on the subject.

Conventionally, more often than not if the "presumed winner" asks to see any discarded hand, and the TD grants the request, that hand is live. But that isn't a TDA Rule per se. Also, more often than not, if a "loser" asks to see a hand not tabled, and the TD grants the request that hand is dead unless it's still in the possession of the player. But there are major TDA member venues that have different rules (all exposed cards at showdown are live, for example) so there is no TDA standard on these situations.

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