Author Topic: Possible undercall situation?  (Read 1854 times)

BROOKS

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Possible undercall situation?
« on: October 06, 2016, 05:08:24 AM »
Blinds are 200/400

Preflop - UTG verbally says all in, dealer announces, and player pushes his stack out.

Folds to cut off who throws out a 500 chip and says call at the same time.

Right away other players speak up making sure he realized he just called the all in.

Cut off  says he didn't know the player was all in and was just calling the big blind amount of 400

Is there any way that this could be considered an undercall and we might let him fold without calling the all in?
(and if so is he losing 400 or 500?)

Player said it, dealer said it, and chips were pushed out. (no we don't have all in buttons, if I had any power we would)

I feel that it was his responsibility to pay attention to the action. The only reason he could not have known UTG was all in, was because he wasn't paying attention. And it's not like he just threw out the chip as an undercall, he verbally said call when action was on him.

I would like to know how others would rule in this situation.
I have been reading a lot about undercalls, and I know that if this were post flop betting and the all in was the opening bet, he would have to call. I'm thinking the verbal "call" is what matters most though?

Dave Miller

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2016, 05:38:34 AM »
It might be an expensive lesson, but players need to learn the rules, including the rule that they need to pay attention and follow the action.

He said "call." What else could that mean?

I'd rule it as a call of the all in amount.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 05:42:07 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2016, 08:50:02 AM »
Brooks,

 Another great question.

 This has been debated forever and the answer will always depend on the lesson that you want to teach any player that acts without being certain of the wager he's facing.

 All rules state that verbal is binding.

Robert's Rules: Betting & Raising...#9 Verbal Is Binding....There are other rules that allow for a gross misunderstanding.

Robert's Rules Betting & Raising...#13 ....
 However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager....

This does not answer your question and it certainly appears that the calling player paid no attention to the action. What you didn't mention was the amount of the all-in? Should it even matter? An all-in of 100 more might make your decision easier than if it were 2,000 more. I would like substantial action to be considered, too.

Max D

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2016, 10:23:43 AM »
Verbal is binding...  I agree with both Dave and Nick.
Max D

Nick C

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2016, 01:52:13 PM »
Hi Max,

 Your reply only reinforces the need for more specific examples so we can separate a "mistake" from a "gross misunderstanding." I do not agree with Dave...not in every situation.

 Not sure I quite agree with verbal is binding as "etched in stone." There will always be other factors to consider...the amount of the raise or all-in, a player being misled by another player or even the dealer, has substantial action occurred? the experience of the player, the history of the player, the intent of the player are a few examples.

 I said it was a great question and I know that the great majority will stick with the "strict" enforcement of the rule.

 Not to complicate a perfectly debatable subject but...what do you do if the next player (Button or SB), calls 400 after the cut off?

« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 06:05:38 PM by Nick C »

Steff0111

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2016, 01:26:56 AM »
How could the next player think, he calls 400???
Cut Off said "call", not "call 400"!
All players, who followed the game, would know that there is an all-in and a call from the Cut Off...

Verbal declaration (in turn) = binding!

Other factors like experience or intent?
Not in this situation, itīs clear!

BROOKS

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2016, 02:18:48 AM »
How could the next player think, he calls 400???
Cut Off said "call", not "call 400"!

Because he threw out a 500 chip when saying call

Dave Miller

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2016, 05:52:33 AM »
How could the next player think, he calls 400???
Cut Off said "call", not "call 400"!

Because he threw out a 500 chip when saying call
So what?

Players often throw in a single small chip when calling a large bet.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2016, 08:42:00 AM »
Yes Dave, but in that situation they shouldn't.

Steff0111...you said: "how could the next player think, he calls 400???

ANSWER: "Folds to cut off who throws out a 500 chip and says call at the same time.
Right away other players speak up making sure he realized he just called the all in.
Cut off says "he didn't know the player was all in and was just calling the big blind amount of 400"

 PLAY: BETS AND RAISES TDA 2015
Act In Turn.... B) Players must wait for clear bet amounts before acting. Ex: NLHE, A says “raise” (but no amount), and B quickly folds. B should wait to act until A’s raise amount is clear.

Max D

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2016, 10:57:40 AM »
How could the next player think, he calls 400???
Cut Off said "call", not "call 400"!
All players, who followed the game, would know that there is an all-in and a call from the Cut Off...

Verbal declaration (in turn) = binding!

Other factors like experience or intent?
Not in this situation, itīs clear!

Nick, I also agree that not all situations are the same, players, dealer should pay attention, they dont always do...  I think we can all agree that not all decision are always black and white, but hopefully TDA can help us 80% of the time and the other 20% we have use Rule 1: "The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final." :)
Max D

Nick C

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2016, 10:44:07 PM »
Does anyone care to address my earlier question?  "Not to complicate a perfectly debatable subject but...what do you do if the next player (Button or SB), calls 400 after the cut off?" In other words, they also missed the all-in...but they followed the incorrect bet in front of them.

Here is the original post:Blinds are 200/400
Preflop - UTG verbally says all in, dealer announces, and player pushes his stack out.
Folds to cut off who throws out a 500 chip and says call at the same time.
Right away other players speak up making sure he realized he just called the all in.
Cut off  says he didn't know the player was all in and was just calling the big blind amount of 400

Steff0111

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2016, 03:46:08 AM »
Does anyone care to address my earlier question?  "Not to complicate a perfectly debatable subject but...what do you do if the next player (Button or SB), calls 400 after the cut off?" In other words, they also missed the all-in...but they followed the incorrect bet in front of them.
...

I canīt see an incorrect bet!
All-In was adressed, dealer has announced, chips were pushed.
Cut off in turn said "call"... He must call the all-in, because it was a correct bet.
After cut offs "call" the next player is in turn. How would he has been called in your example? By pushing silently one chip or by verbally declairing "call"?

Nick C

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2016, 11:16:31 AM »
Steff0111:

 Let me put it to you in another example. Adam bets 500...Billy goes all-in for more...Charlie says call but only puts in 500 (not realizing the all-in) David reacts to Charlies 500 thinking he has called. Can we penalize David, too?

Steff0111

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2016, 11:23:46 PM »
This is one of these situations...  :D
For me Charlies situation is clear! Call of all-in!

Had David the chance to realize that Charlie called an all-in? -> Not madatory, but with attention: yes
Had David the chance to realize that Billy is all-in? -> Yes, he just have to look around the table


What about David?
When David said "call" unfortunately he has to pay the all-in.
When David just put out a chip, TD could make an other decision (with a warning for not paying attention)

I do not like the word "penalize" in this situation!
Every player behind Billy had the same chance to pay attention and follow the game!
Every player behind Billy had the same chance to realize an all-in.
It is not a    penalization when a player has to put chips out after he called a bet. It is part of the game, covered by rules (even by verbal declaration).
For me itīs fairness towards all other players of poker, who called a bet and have to pay for the call...

Dave Miller

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Re: Possible undercall situation?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2016, 05:16:12 AM »
In Steff's example, if you give Charlie a mulligan, you must also give it to David. But what if Charlie says he knew Billy was all-in, but David says he didn't? Or the other way around?

Can you give one player a mulligan, but not the other player?


For example, let's say David pushes out multiple chips, or even his whole stack, while saying "Call". Doesn't that imply that he knew Billy was all-in, and that he thought Charlie also knew it?

How about if David pushes out multiple chips, or his whole stack, but says nothing?


The only ruling that satisfies all of these scenarios is that Charlie and David must call the all-in. And that if David silently pushed his whole stack, he's all-in too.

I.E. It's the player's responsibility to know what the action is.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?