Author Topic: Is this hand dead?  (Read 7568 times)

lvchiquita

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Is this hand dead?
« on: April 06, 2010, 10:12:54 AM »
I need some opinions regarding an action a floor took against me in a local tournament. here's the situation, everyone in front of me folds... I make a small raise 3x the blind ( blinds are 100- 200). The person to my left goes all-in ( he has about 4100) everyone behind him folds, I call his remaining chips. He has one $25.00 chip on his cards, so technically not all-in. The flop comes and I hit 2 pair. The all-in in player Says" I think I'm drawing dead", the turn comes I make a boat and the I turn over my hand and "say you are now". Everyone at the table screams "DEAD HAND DEAD HAND". Floor comes over and confirms its a dead hand as the other person still has a chip and action was not complete. How do you rule on this hand?

 >:(

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 11:52:00 AM »
You say the person goes all in, then you say "so not technically all in".  Which is it?  If he verbally declared all in and you verbally declare call then to my knowledge neither of you have to put any chips into the middle.  Also if this is the case then both sets of cards should be turned face up as betting is complete, as per rule #9.

If he didn't declare all in and just pushed most of his chips into the middle then you do not have a dead hand as per rule #42:
 "Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand."

Whether or not I would impose a penalty would depend on what stage of the tourney this was in relation to the money, as it could be argued that by tabling your hand early you prevented a player being knocked out and everyone else "laddering"


Sorry for the ramble...
Lewis

chet

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 11:58:56 AM »
I need some opinions regarding an action a floor took against me in a local tournament. here's the situation, everyone in front of me folds... I make a small raise 3x the blind ( blinds are 100- 200). The person to my left goes all-in ( he has about 4100) everyone behind him folds, I call his remaining chips. He has one $25.00 chip on his cards, so technically not all-in. The flop comes and I hit 2 pair. The all-in in player Says" I think I'm drawing dead", the turn comes I make a boat and the I turn over my hand and "say you are now". Everyone at the table screams "DEAD HAND DEAD HAND". Floor comes over and confirms its a dead hand as the other person still has a chip and action was not complete. How do you rule on this hand?

 >:(

What a horrible ruling!! Based on the information provided.  

First of all - Did the player to your left just push his/her chips in or was there a verbal declaration of "all-in"?  If just a chip push, then the assumption by you of "all-in" was your error and there is no "all-in".  If there was a verbal declaration, then the $25 "chip cap" should have been in the pot and the dealer should have required both hands to be turned 'face up' at that point.  

So my question to you is was there a verbal declaration of "all-in"?  The rest of my response depends upon the answer to that question.  Since I have to leave, I will finish my response later.

Chet


I'm  BAAAACCCKKK!!

Regardless of whether there was an "all-in" or not, the TD's decision that your hand was dead was 100% wrong, based on TDA rules.  However, what you have learned, unfortunately too late, is that not all card rooms have adopted and follow the TDA Rules. 

TDA Rule #42 says, "Exposing Cards  A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand.  The penalty will begin at the end of the hand."

So, you need to find out if the card room has adopted the TDA Rules and if there are any exceptions.  A LOT of card rooms claim to have adopted the TDA Rules, but in some cases there are exceptions.  Sometimes because of Gaming Agency requirements, sometimes not.  As a player, it is up to you to find out what the local "rules of the game" are.

If you respond to my original question about a verbal declaration of "all-in", I will respond further.  Otherwise, there isn't much more to add.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 05:50:05 PM by chet »

Nick C

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 03:08:52 PM »
That is a ridiculous call. I agree there are some issues that need to be sorted out but, there is no way (based on what you described) that your hand could be ruled dead.
This is a huge problem that I think too many players and floor personnel are focusing on; Overreacting to every little detail that might be borderline as far as an infraction of a rule, when it is obvious that the action or gesture was unintentional.  I think those rules were written to protect players from being injured by deliberate deceptive moves by some players, not to take away a pot from the owner of the best hand. That's how I feel. I'm always interested in what others have to say. I hope it didn't cost you too much.

Nick C

Stuart Murray

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 05:31:18 PM »
There are places where exposing your hand would construe it to be a dead hand, that have not gotten up to date with the times.  That said this situation is very strange.  First off the player goes all-in less 25, then no-one tables their cards - do you both check the flop?? why were the cards not tabled pre-flop? there are too many issues that are not forthcoming for me to cast an opinion on it. as per Chet and Lewis's replies.

Given the TDA rule that an exposed hand will not be dead it's not something anyone on here ((hopefully) would now do, but It seems that this situation has just became a technical minefield that you will only learn from.

Regards
Stuart
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lvchiquita

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 07:04:40 PM »
The player pushed all his chips in, but did not declare he was all in, I think he realized afterward that he had the $25.00 chip on his card, and so did not flip over his cards whan I said "call". I believed the intent was to be all in, he just overlooked the $25.00 chip on his cards. The dealer did not give me an option to put him all in nor did he give me an option to reraise him all-in on the flop or check or bet on the turn. I felt that this was an implied all-in and when I realized my hand was obviously the winner I turned my cards up. Again the dealer made no mention to NOT expose my hand or it would be dead, nor did he declare  it a dead hand, another player at the table, who was NOT in the hand declared it a dead hand. I then called the floor over, who confirmed that my obviously winning hand was indeed dead.

chet

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 08:19:17 PM »
Thanks for the clarification.  Unfortunately, your verbal "call" binds you to that action.  Had you realized that player was not "all-in" you could have raised.  Based on what you said in your original post, this action was pre-flop.  Does this facility require that cards be turned "face-up" when a player is all-in and there is no more betting action?  Are you saying in your latest post that the dealer did not give either of you the opportunity to act after the flop, on the turn and on the river?  I think you have good reason to be upset just with how things appear to have been handled not only by the TD, but by the dealer.  You might want to speak to management, although it is too late to do anything about that particular hand, it may not be too late to prevent a repeat situation in the future.

You have an incompetent dealer whose actions essentially followed an "all-in" scenario, a bunch of incompetent players who should have kept their mouths shut and a totally (IMHO) incompetent floor. 

You didn't indicate how much experience you have, why didn't you stop the dealer after he dealt the flop and proceeded with the burn and turn, etc?  That would have been the place for you to call for a floor.  Hopefully, you didn't lose too much in this event so you can 'write it off' to experience and "lessons learned".

You might want to evaluate your choices of where to play if this ruling and procedure are typical.  And Don't be afraid to SPEAK UP, if things appear to be off kilter.  You have to be polite, not accusatory and don't be a jerk (there seems to be plenty of those in that room already) but you have the right to know the reason something is being done the way it is. 

MikeB

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 09:54:30 PM »
I need some opinions regarding an action a floor took against me in a local tournament. here's the situation, everyone in front of me folds... I make a small raise 3x the blind ( blinds are 100- 200). The person to my left goes all-in ( he has about 4100) everyone behind him folds, I call his remaining chips. He has one $25.00 chip on his cards, so technically not all-in. The flop comes and I hit 2 pair. The all-in in player Says" I think I'm drawing dead", the turn comes I make a boat and the I turn over my hand and "say you are now". Everyone at the table screams "DEAD HAND DEAD HAND". Floor comes over and confirms its a dead hand as the other person still has a chip and action was not complete. How do you rule on this hand?>:(
I have two answers here: 1) At any tournament utilizing TDA rules, this appears to be a very bad ruling. Deliberate card exposure, which this could be construed as, is not basis for a dead hand but it could receive a warning or penalty. Further, just because the other person has chips remaining, the only issue there is that, let's say he had alot of chips remaining, you would have to continue playing with your cards exposed. He would still have the right to bet, raise, etc., you would have to play with the self-imposed handicap of exposed cards.

2) At this particular venue they are not using (or certainly not adhering) to TDA rules, and wherever you're at, you have to live with those House Rules. Premature card exposure, before the dealer has asked to see the cards, is just never a good idea. And to that point, everyone needs to be aware that one of the most common "bad" rulings is that prematurely exposed cards are dead, why risk it ?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 09:57:54 PM by MikeB »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 07:06:41 AM »
sounds like a poker room full of baboons to me tba
Stuart Murray
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lvchiquita

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2010, 08:50:13 AM »
Thank you all for your replies.. especially the one about the room full of baboons. I felt the same way that day, and actually quite helpless as I knew how bad of a ruling this was. It was just a small weekly tournament $65.00 buy-in, but they about 95 players that day ,and my double up there would have put me in a very good chip position. I plan on taking all of your replies and some others from Linda Johnson, David Lamb & Matt Savage who all agreed the hand should not have been dead, and showing them to the owner of the casino and at least asking for a refund and apology.
Thanks Again!

Robert Irving

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 03:41:40 AM »
It is understandable here that you assumed an "all in" action on the opponents hand as such a raise, less 25 is ridiculous. However it is an error on your behalf making an assumption.

I also believe that cards should have been tabled whenn calling an all in, dependant on house rules as you have paid to see the players cards and therefor also paid to see their range and style of play. But when you say the dealer gave u no option to raise, bet or even check to see turn or river... this makes me believe that the dealer is also to blame for this terrible ruling against you. you were obviously given no opportunity to make any action therefor i believe the dealer may have assumed an all in and may not have communicated this to the floor. In any case the dealer should provide information and the table can verify the events that occured, and it should have came to the floors attention that dealer error had a big part to play here. If a dealer proceeds to deal the full board with no opportunities to bet it is a huge dealer error. This is where the floor should be told that the dealer had a part to play in the ruling of a dead hand. had it been dealt correctly, you would be in the strong position you were hoping for. Perhaps a request for a new dealer is required.

THANKS.

Mike Lorne

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2010, 11:42:11 AM »
As a TD here or a floor , this should be fairly simple , as with anything else "If one wants to make a good decision about things remove emotion and replace with intent"the players intent was to push ,chip goes in the pot and is matched , and the pot awarded.

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2010, 07:40:20 PM »
I think we’ve come to a consensus.
If the all-in was stated then the cards should have been tabled any way.
If the all-in wasn’t stated the player just raised and if your cards were shown you may have incurred a penalty but now more.
If the card room has a house rule that supersedes TDA then you lose.
Apparently the rest of the table knew the house rules.
All I can say is be sure of the rule before you play in a tournament.
Good luck,
Martin

aceofhearts

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2010, 08:14:08 PM »
now if this player was to accrue a penalty? what kinda penalty would they get?

chet

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Re: Is this hand dead?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 08:55:07 PM »
The TDA does not make any recommendation as to a specific penalty for a given infraction other than outright collusion/cheating and that penalty is basically disqualification.  As to your specific question, TDA Rule 40 (which is too long to quote fully IMO) describes a range of penalty actions available to the TD, starting with a warning, a one-hand penalty, multiple hand penalties and finally disquaification

The specific penalty assessed is dependent upon a number of factors, including by not limited to, experience level of the player, the 'history' of the player, the infraction and so forth. 

Example #1, a player says "fold" and  shows his/her cards to the player on his/her left before that player has acted.  The dealer calls you as the TD and explains the situation.  During the investigation, you learn that this player has NEVER played a poker tournament before, either live or on-line and did not know this was an infraction.  You have to do something, but what?

Example #2,  same set of facts, EXCEPT you know the offending player has several years experience in live tournament play.  What do you do in this case?

My response ---

#1 -- In the first case I would take the player aside and explain why this is an infraction, in effect assessing a one-hand penalty while talking to the player.

#2 -- Since this player is experienced and absolutely knows the action is an infraction I would find out if he/she knows the player to the left.  If not I would try to ascertain the 'history' of this player and this action.  If this is the first time and the offending player does not know the player on the left, I might be so lenient as to just issue a warning or maybe a one round penalty, depending again the experience with this player, i.e., is he/she a jerk or just made a mistake.  If it has happened before, whether that same event or not and again the offending player and the player to the left are not acquainted, I would be inclined to issue at least a one-round penalty, but more likely two rounds.  If this is the first time and the offending player and the player to the left are acquainted, I would be inclined to issue a several round penalty, if not a disqualification, as this is almost blatant collusion.  If they are acquainted and this has happened before, regardless of whether in this same event or not, I would disqualify the player and remove his/her remaining chips from play.  Furthermore, if I thought the player on the left was an 'active' participant, I would issue the same penalty (either missed hands or disqualification). 

Knowing your players and their prior actions are one of the factors involved with the decision of the WSOP to keep a computer record of the infractions by individual players.

We all have those players in our events who continue to 'push the envelope' to see just how much they can get away with.  Recording infractions and penalties assessed are a 'tool' to be used by the TD as you do your best to run your events and make it enjoyable for everyone.

Hope this helps!!