Author Topic: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?  (Read 2712 times)

Nick C

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2016, 02:05:09 PM »
Mike,

 I just want to be clear on what you wrote: If a player touches his SB, or touches any of his short wagered amount...he MUST call.

MikeB

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 07:20:34 AM »
Thanks for the responses.

I would just like to ask about scenario #2 if he didn't pull back any chips, his 100 was out there and he threw out a 1k chip, without removing the 100.
Are we ruling this a raise to 1100 or just a call, as he threw out 1 oversize chip and did not pull back any prior chips?
I lean towards just a call
Hey Brooks sorry for late response. Yes generally that would be a call for the reason you mention he puts out a silent overchip when facing a raise. However how would you rule if in a continuous motion he puts out an overchip and tosses or pushes all 3 chips significantly further towards the pot? Thats yet another variation subject to interpretation hence the general language you should declare action first before putiing new chip(s) out on top of prior bet chips.

Nick C

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2016, 09:36:16 AM »
Brooks,

 Does this rule not apply to your question #2 Rule 46: Multiple Chip Betting.
“When facing a bet, unless raise is declared first, a multiple-chip bet is a call if every chip is
needed to make the call; i.e. removal of just one of the smallest chips leaves less than the call
amount… If the single removal of just one of the smallest chips leaves the call amount or
more, the bet is governed by the 50% standard in Rule 43.
If so, wouldn't it be a raise? Removal of one small chip would easily qualify as a raise, or am I missing something again?

Mike, Not sure if you saw my last post, but a yes or no answer would help clear this up for me. Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 09:41:26 AM by Nick C »

Max D

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 09:58:39 AM »
Thanks guys for the clarification, for some reason i was thinking of a more nefarious definition  :o for manipulate, but I now see it for what it is, which is move the chips around. :D
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 01:53:28 PM by Max D »
Max D

BROOKS

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 01:12:50 PM »
Nick - I would say no. I do not believe that throwing out 1 oversize chip, adding it to existing chip(s) falls under multiple chip betting.
I feel that the multiple chip rule is for when a player tosses out multiple chips together. Hence why there are 2 separate rules. One for the an oversize chip, and one for multiple chips.

Just my take on it though.

Nick C

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2016, 01:46:25 PM »
Brooks,

 I hope you don't think I'm challenging you on this ruling...I am not. I am however very confused to think that there are so many TDA rules that can justify any call the floor wants to make.

 Blinds 100 & 200 UTG raises to 500...the small blind removes one of his 50 count chips (leaving one in the bet area) and tosses a 1K chip into the bet. Why would any player, not wishing to raise, remove only one chip? Would you not look at this as multiple chips? If so, removal of the smallest chip would be more than sufficient to constitute a raise. Isn't that what the current rule addresses? Forgive me if my comprehension is clouded.

 Announcing "call" or removing both 50 count chips (100 SB) before silently tossing a single 1K would be the two solid choices to guarantee a call. Other than that, I believe the current rule is specific and clearly makes the above action...a raise. How can so many of these rules create different results? ???

pastor

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2016, 07:39:12 PM »
Any touching or moving at least a single chip within the betting area is a new action.

Look at this: THNL, blinds 100 - 200
SB-100
BB-200
MP- 700 (total raise)
Action back to SB:

A. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 2 x 500
B. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 2 x 500
C. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 1 x 1.000
D. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 1 x 1.000
F. SB leave 2 x 50 & put over 2 x 500

My answer is:

A. CALL
B. RAISE (50% RULES)
C. CALL
D. CALL
F. RAISE (50% RULES)

Nick C

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2016, 09:27:47 AM »
pastor,

 In your example (C & D)... it makes no difference to you whether the SB leaves his 100 in or removes it before tossing in a single 1 x 1.000 chip. If this is correct, this is where we will disagree.

 There are casinos that I know of that will not allow a raise unless 100% of the prior call amount is matched. They will not use the 50% rule. This, however should not pertain to the oversize chip rule.

 In your example: I see no difference between putting 2 x 500 or 1 x 1.000...as long as you leave your SB in the bet area.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 06:23:34 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2016, 12:42:49 PM »
Any touching or moving at least a single chip within the betting area is a new action.

Look at this: THNL, blinds 100 - 200
SB-100
BB-200
MP- 700 (total raise)
Action back to SB:

A. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 2 x 500
B. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 2 x 500
C. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 1 x 1.000
D. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 1 x 1.000
F. SB leave 2 x 50 & put over 2 x 500

My answer is:

A. CALL
B. RAISE (50% RULES)
C. CALL
D. CALL
F. RAISE (50% RULES)

Pastor: Thanks alot for the great cases. This is an example of why having a blanket rule for all this is challenging. Personally I would rule as follows:
A: Call

B: Call. Why? because it's really 600 to the SB and he puts out two 500's. If you take one of those away it leaves less than the amount to call. If you rule it a raise I think you have to be including the 100 sb as part of a multi-chip bet. I prefer to only look at the two 500's as a multi-chip bet in this case, because the prior bet chip(s) was not disturbed

C: Call. But I think in your rulings, since you ruled B a raise you have to rule C a raise too... reason is I assume you are considering the 100 sb as part of a multi-chip bet in B, yes? Then you would have to consider the 1000 and 100 in C as a multi-chip bet. Technically I don't think we consider any prior bet as part of a multi-chip bet UNLESS only part of the prior bet is removed... let's say the guy made his 100 sb with two 50's and he just pulls one 50 back and tosses out a 1000, or tosses out two 500's. Then in that case many would consider the remaining 50 to be part of a new multi-chip bet. Confusing? Yes. That's why the one thing everyone can agree on is the current language in Rule 47-A: "Because several possibilities exist, players should declare their bets before putting out new chips on top of prior-bet chips not yet pulled in".

D: Call

F: Call as long as he doesn't disturb one of the 50's. If he pulls back one of the 50's I'd rule it a raise. This case of "partial pullback" of prior chips was discussed at length at the 2015 Summit, and from memory the majority (but not all) attendees ruled those situations a raise.

Thanks again for the great input.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 12:51:46 PM by MikeB »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2016, 01:13:26 PM »
Mike,

 I just want to be clear on what you wrote: If a player touches his SB, or touches any of his short wagered amount...he MUST call.

Anarchy now! These uniform globalists have lost their collective minds.
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

pastor

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2016, 08:46:57 AM »
OK guys,

Let's start to investigate where is the problem of this ''anarchy'' or different interpretation?

SB ask the dealer ''HOW MUCH'' and dealer's answer is?

1. 600 to call.
2. 700 (most EU casinos)

If a dealer gave to SB only one option (600 to call), then all my examples are CALL. If a dealer give to SB the info. of total raise, then he/she leave them all options and my answer's are as I said. If a dealer didn't say nothing, is the same.

Nick C

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2016, 09:40:26 AM »
Pastor,

 If I were dealing and you were the SB with 100...I'd tell you it is 600 more to call. I know this is not the way it is done outside of the United States, but it's the best way to address the proper amount necessary to compete. Current rules, in my opinion, will cause confusion. For this reason, I do not agree with TDA #43 B Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Ex: A opens for 2000, B declares “Raise, eight thousand.” The total bet is 8000.

 What makes more sense? YOU: "How much is it dealer?" DEALER: "Seven hundred." YOU: "Seven hundred more?" DEALER: "No, six hundred more!" YOU: "Okay, I call."   Or...DEALER: "Six hundred more to call."
 
 

pastor

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2017, 05:36:20 AM »
Nik C.

We always count and announce total bet or raise (PLAYER: How much is it or there? DEALER: 700).

What is the difference between NL and PL?
SB: How much is a Pot?
DEALER: 2.300 or 2.200 more?

Nick C

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Re: two interesting situations: when is manipulation or not?
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2017, 05:35:29 PM »
pastor,

 Not sure I know where you're going with this. The difference, in relation to the size of the pot, is that the dealer does not announce pot size in NL & Limit...only in Pot Limit.

 In your next question: SB: How much is pot? I don't know how to answer that. I will tell you this: if I am dealing, and you are in with one hundred in the SB position, and the total wager to you is 2400, I will announce "raise" followed by the required amount for you to call the bet. "Pastor, the pot is raised, it's 2300 to call."

 When dealing pot limit...the dealer is required to know the size of the pot. I don't believe he is responsible for telling you how to determine what your max bet should be.

 That does raise a good question. In Pot-Limit does the dealer have to tell the bettor how much his pot bet must be? Or is the dealer only responsible to tell the bettor the size of the actual pot?